02-05-2019 Roger Castillo – Why life is taken personally

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so really the talks focus around a very
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particular subject and that is happiness
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for the human being in daily living and
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so if that’s the topic it requires a
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little bit of defining what is this
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happiness for the human being and as we
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become clearer on what the happiness is
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it becomes more obvious what the
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obstacle to happiness is and given that
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happiness turns out to be the absence of
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the obstacle it’s pretty important to
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understand the obstacle and the dynamics
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that keep that obstacle in place so it
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turns out that happiness for the human
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being is peace of mind that’s the form
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in which we can be happy on a continuous
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unbroken basis in this life through
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being at peace with our self and the
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other regardless of the circumstance we
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find ourself in so really we’re looking
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for happiness in daily living happiness
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in life and when we look at what life is
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see life is into human relationship so
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really we’re looking for happiness which
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turns out to be peace in life meaning
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peace in into human relationship peace
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and harmony in into human relationship
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and as I was saying the pieces not and
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the harmony is not really a gaining of
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anything it’s not something added in to
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a relationship which is what we tend to
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be seeking in life most regularly is
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we’re trying to add in things to make
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things better whereas the paradox or
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irony of this whole search is that it
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isn’t about adding something and that’s
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one of the main reasons why Humanity has
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been seeking for so long and by and
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large not becoming satisfied as a result
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of the seeking because the seeking is a
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particular type of seeking that’s
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happening I’m not necessarily talking
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about spiritual seeking but the same
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principle applies in spiritual seeking
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until it becomes clear that the same era
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essentially has been carried over into
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the spiritual seeking so by and large
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the human being has evolved to a point
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where the assumption is in order for
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life to be better I need to add things
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that I don’t have into my life
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so essentially seeking happiness in the
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form of pleasure or in the form of
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changed circumstance that’s the standard
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given assumption and these are
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descriptions so what I’m saying is it’s
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it’s not really an opinion we can treat
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it as an opinion but what I mean by that
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is if you take the concept and hear what
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they’re saying then you get to check it
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out especially for yourself that’s the
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most important thing so this statement
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is essentially saying that life has
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developed us to a point where we are
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convinced that our happiness is to be
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found in adding more into our life more
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pleasure essentially change of
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circumstance and that’s an error so
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that’s just a description it’s not a
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judgment it’s a description and then
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hopefully we get to see is it true that
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that’s my deeply ingrained idea of where
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happiness is to be found now on a
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conscious level we might have started to
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understand no that’s not where happiness
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is to be found and if we ask ourselves
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this question really honestly we we need
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to look at all levels and if we find
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that on one level we understand it’s not
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to be found and outcomes and yet when
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the body is allowed to just and the body
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in the mind is allowed to roam unchecked
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and we see it continually going back to
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imagination a fantasy of things being
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different that’s a great observation and
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it means we’ve become honest and we’ve
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seen things below our concept of various
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things so the the concept and the
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conviction to some extent that no my
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happiness isn’t to be found in outcomes
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that sinking in is is very positive
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but if we don’t recognize that the
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opposite is still in place in the system
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then we might become convinced that no I
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understand that
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my happiness isn’t to be found in
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circumstance when we look more closely
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we say are actually on some level I
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understand it and on some level I’m
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moving away from seeking happiness in
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the form of pleasures and new
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circumstances
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but I acknowledge that on another level
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when things are left unchecked
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automatically there’s a thinking process
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and a movement and a yearning for
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improved circumstance like for example
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the yearning to meet our soulmate let’s
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say if we’re single or if we’re in a
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relationship the yearning for the
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relationship to be more fulfilling let’s
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say and when we land on this and see wow
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yes there is this deeply ingrained
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assumption that when that happens
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everything will be better or everything
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will be okay that’s a that’s a great
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insight to have because then we’re
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seeing what the concepts are saying for
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our self for our own situation which
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means the further collapse of that
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structure once it’s seen and once it’s
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understood to not be a movement that
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will deliver what we think it will will
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deliver so the one of the concepts in
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the teaching says the human being
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generally speaking is seeking because of
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a deeply ingrained belief that says my
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happiness is to be found in outcomes my
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completeness is to be found in outcomes
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is seeking happiness in the form of
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pleasure pleasure pleasure and new
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circumstance changed circumstance that’s
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the concept and then it says actually
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for as long as that seeking continues
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we’re looking for something in the wrong
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place and we’re not going to find it
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there it just isn’t there to be found
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and yet we keep looking hoping that it
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you know if I turn over one more rock
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I’ll find it there
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but not you know the rocks are all in a
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place where the thing we’re looking for
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just isn’t so it doesn’t matter how many
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rocks you turn over it’s not going to be
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there so the concepts is actually the
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happiness that is available for the
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human being is not a happiness through
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outcomes
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that’s pleasure and pleasure is great
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don’t get me wrong I’m not suggesting
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that we should reduce pleasure down to
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an insignificance what I’m saying is we
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should start relating to the flow of
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life both pleasure and pain in a healthy
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way relating to circumstance as pleasure
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and pain knowing that that pleasure and
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pain isn’t actually an attack on Who I
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am or a addition to Who I am that it’s
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not going to make me more complete or
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less complete and to remember that my
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happiness is a happiness of peace now
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now we’re getting to the peace what is
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peace peace is the absence not the not
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the addition the absence of suffering
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and suffering is that which is in
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practical terms arises as guilt blame
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pride worry and anxiety expectation and
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attachment to outcome so they’re all
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really mental and attitudinal movements
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so guilt guilt isn’t a circumstantial
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thing it’s an it’s a feeling and a
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thought pattern that arises in our
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experience it has a certain quality to
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it the quality is one of
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uncomfortableness with oneself primarily
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oneself when it comes to guilt for not
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being good enough not having performed
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well enough being inadequate and so
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self-pity someone asked about self-pity
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in a question the other day self-pity
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comes under guilt and
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lack of self-confidence and unworthiness
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fall under this category of guilt I’m
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not good enough the way I am I need to
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essentially improve myself I need to
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become better more I need to add more to
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myself I need to get bigger muscles or
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better haircut or become more
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intelligent become more social become
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more financially successful so all of
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these movements in life are linked to
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either a sense of not being good enough
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or and/or an idea that my happiness my
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completeness is to be found in getting
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pleasure so we figure if I become a
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better human being I will get more from
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society and so we’re seeking this more
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so the forms of suffering guilt blame
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pride worrying anxiety expectation and
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attachment to outcome are not actually
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circumstantial but they’re all thought
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and feelings about a circumstance about
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life as it is right now
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all life as it was in the past events
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that happen in the past so an attitude
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towards what the other did that hurt me
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for example and that’s the attitude of
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blame you
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well it’s blame if you have a certain
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attitude to what the person did that
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hurt you if the attitude is you as a
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separate independent doer you as a
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separate individual delivered pain to me
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and if we believe that pain is an attack
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on what we’re looking for then we feel
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that pain not only on a biological level
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but at a much deeper level it creates an
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uncomfortableness with
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with our self on a deep level and then
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we say you hurt me you attacked me so I
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hate you and that becomes the attitude
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of blame towards the other based on a
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circumstance that happened and this
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attitude of that or that the arising of
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blame and guilt and pride worried
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expectation oh sorry
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worry and anxiety expectation and
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attachment outcomes carries on in
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horizontal time that’s the really
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unfortunate part of this form of
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suffering is that it’s not momentary but
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it gets dragged out over time sometimes
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a whole lifetime a whole lifetime of
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bitterness because of what someone did
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60 years ago
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and the reason that it doesn’t fall away
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is because it’s kept in place by a very
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important assumption the assumption
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we’ve been talking about that that
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circumstance which is either pleasure or
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pain and usually it is it’s got to do
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with painful circumstances the
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assumption that that circumstance was an
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attack on Who I am
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so once that assumption is locked away
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in the relationship in in our
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attitudinal relationship to the event it
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essentially means that it’s personal
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it’s about my survival it’s about my
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completeness and so we can’t drop it
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it’s not about well just work hard at
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dropping it it’s not it is it’s just a
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dynamic that can’t happen it will get
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dropped very quickly effortlessly once
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it’s seen in a different light
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once it’s seen to not be personal
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because once it’s not personal like who
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cares that that happened I think really
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like I don’t so what but when it’s taken
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personally if someone tells you no just
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drop it it’s like it you can’t it’s like
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I can’t drop it if I drop it on it’s
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almost like um it’s disrespecting myself
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but on a much more fundamental level of
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survival and existence is what it it
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would be like it would almost be like
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dropping it is the equivalent of getting
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a knife and stabbing yourself say I
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can’t drop it because that was an attack
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on myself I have to I have to defend
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myself against that
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so psychologically it gets carried on
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and on and on and on until either
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because of time it gets forgotten which
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is unlikely if it’s something that has
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been taken very personally and the
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intensity of the pain is what tends to
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be linked to help personally we take
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something and so this is a key to the
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events of the past falling away and so
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what I mean by the past is a minute ago
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as well 10 seconds ago like so if
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someone you know says something that’s
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let’s say rude or an attack and then
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afterwards they come back and they say
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I’m sorry about that it’s like don’t
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worry about it that was a long time ago
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yeah it doesn’t have to get carried on
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it’s like oh that happened it’s finished
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and we can be like that if it’s not
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personal
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but you can’t pretend it’s not personal
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it’s not about it being personal because
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we choose it to be personal or
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impersonal because we choose it it’s
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because of a certain dynamic and we’ll
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talk about that not just responding to
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what you said about that it happened 30
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seconds ago or a minute ago or a day ago
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so you let it go and because even if the
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person apologizes and I can say that
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don’t worry about it but there’s a deep
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lack of trust that it won’t happen again
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so there’s a sense of I need to really
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be careful about this person and there’s
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already a mental check so even though he
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apologizes it I feel I see a wolf in
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sheep’s clothing
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I will who’s trying to be nice but
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actually we’ll do this again so I just
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used the example of someone apologizing
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the point is that they don’t even need
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to apologize if it’s not personal so it
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will happen again but even the fact that
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happened they will have it again who can
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because it’s not personal it went when
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it’s taken as an attack on who we are
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which is not once again I’ll talk it’s
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not something that we can choose to you
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know take it as an attack or not take it
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as an attack something fundamentally
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needs to change in our idea and
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connection to what we are and so if it
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if it is taken personally because of our
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makeup rank because of the way we relate
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to what the other person does and how we
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see it in relation to our self identity
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so if it is taken personally then we are
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going to become weary of the other and
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really weary of life
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this is where when pain in the moment
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from the other gets received and it’s
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taken personally then what happens is
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that creates an attitude of separation
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between you and the other me and the
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other whereby the other is a competitor
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at best a rival or an enemy and so we go
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through life being fearful and
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suspicious with our defenses up and our
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guard up all the time and that’s not a
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criticism what I’m saying is not a
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criticism or a judgement it’s just a
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description right so you might be able
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to relate to it that we go through life
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suspicious of the other one hurting us
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being able to hurt us any at any point
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so what is it that changes in us that
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allows life and the flow of life
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particularly painful circumstances often
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delivered as a result of the actions of
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the other what is it that prevents us
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from receiving that as an attack on Who
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I am because it’s not something that we
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do if someone says I’ve heard that so
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now I have to work very hard at not
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taking things personally if nothing
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changes except for someone’s intention
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you can say that they’ve got a good
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intention and they might be able to hold
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up a facade for a period of time but no
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I’m not taking personally it’s all okay
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it’s fine you apologized
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I accept your apology thank you and
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really what’s happening is that the
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anger the fear the blame the fear is
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building up
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and we might be pretending that it’s not
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personal but it’s still personal so
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intention alone is nowhere near enough
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what is required is a fundamental change
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that life will deliver so this is what
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when people refer to grace grace really
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means that we’re not the ones in control
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of life and what it delivers so one of
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as you know one of the key components of
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the teaching is the pointing to the fact
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that we’re not the doers so clearly
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things happen through us you know we
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make breakfast we read books and write
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articles and have children and so Nandu
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ership doesn’t mean that things don’t
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happen through us it’s pointing at them
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to the fact that what happens through us
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is essentially a result of how that life
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has shaped us and so the do the belief
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in Ducie for the belief in Nandu ership
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is simply a result of how we see
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ourselves do we see ourself as the agent
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of everything that the body and the mind
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produce or do we know that what is
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happening through the body is
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essentially life functioning through a
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body that life itself has formed in
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order to function exactly that way so
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clearly things are always happening in
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life the body is always on one level we
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can say doing in terms of functioning
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there is a functioning but that
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functioning when we look at it closely
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is not a result of the body being in
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control but rather as a result of the
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body functioning automatically according
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to its design so whenever anything
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happens especially those things that
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deliver
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sniff accan change for the better that’s
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what’s referred to as grace it’s like
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thank you you know thank you life I
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realized that I wasn’t the one that
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brought about this change that has
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delivered this gift so we refer to that
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as grace so really all of life is grace
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meaning all of life is not my doing but
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grace is roof is reserved in a sense for
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those changes that we consciously see
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happened outside of our control and
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delivered fairly positive results so
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what does life need to deliver what is
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the grace that needs to be delivered in
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order for circumstance to not be taken
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personally
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essentially it’s a combination of the
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dissolving of the self-identity the
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dissolving of the belief that what I am
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is primarily just a physical entity in
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control of everything that happens
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through me and the you know the
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co-arising belief that as this physical
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entity my completion and my happiness is
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to be found and pleasure pleasure
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pleasure or the gaining of something to
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be found in life being different to the
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way it is so that essentially is a set
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of beliefs that are not in line with
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what we really are so if those don’t
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dissolve we are going to continually
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find ourselves at odds with life that is
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flowing and the flow of life is always a
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mix of pleasure and pain and our
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self-identity says I need life to
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deliver me all of the things that I
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believe will complete me I need life to
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make everyone like me everyone be kind
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to me everyone do what I would like them
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to do be kind to others I need life to
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deliver financial security and great
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relationships a great job a Ferrari Navy
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um so that’s the self identity it’s
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actually a very deeply ingrained belief
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structure that’s what the self identity
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is and because it’s essentially saying
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it’s demanding it’s insisting because it
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thinks it’s it’s survival not only
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survival but it’s
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it’s it’s means to completion when life
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delivers what it’s always going to
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deliver which is a mix of pleasure and
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pain what is that – this self-identity
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it’s disappointment it’s an attack on
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what it believes it needs in order to be
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complete so life essentially becomes an
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attack on what we believe our self to be
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so if those beliefs don’t weaken start
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to dissolve life is going to be taken
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personally the counterpart to that is a
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connection a realization of the part of
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the human being that’s always being part
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of the human being because it is part of
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the human being actually it’s what we
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could call the core of the human being a
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realization of that meaning a
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recognition of it as seeing it and
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therefore an appreciating of it for
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sometimes the first time so it’s a
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dissolving a weakening of the false
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belief of Who I am and a connecting to
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the core of what I am that has been
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obscured for a whole lifetime by this
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self identity which is essentially a set
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of inaccurate belief systems and what
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the core of the human being
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happens to be and if we were different
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maybe this happiness this peace wouldn’t
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be available but what we happen to be at
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our core is something outside of the
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dimension of time and space and matter
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consciousness we could call it if we
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want to use a word for it and the nature
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of consciousness isn’t bound by the
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physical laws so when we dive into or
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rest in our beingness what we find is
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something quite different to what we
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know when we look outwardly we find
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something that is timeless meaning it
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has it actually doesn’t contain any of
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the characteristics that the external
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world contains and with the absence of
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all of these characteristics we find
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that there’s a mystery inside but it’s
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not a mystery that we need to solve
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because what’s there is an a sense of
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being so the core of what the human
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being is is consciousness that already
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is in this moment it exists and
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we could call it I am this I exist Ness
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I am completeness because that happens
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to be the nature of it because it
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doesn’t include any thoughts to the
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contrary and it just happens to be what
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it is so the core of the human happens
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to be something that is complete right
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now that is a piece right now and so if
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the core of the human being is at peace
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right now then that means the human
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being can be at peace right now so it’s
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a connection to the core of who we are
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that delivers recognition that I’m
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completely right now even when life is
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not ideal according to certain standards
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we drop into our being and we find our
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being is completely content and complete
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with life being exactly the way it is
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we have to acknowledge the fact that the
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thinking mind which is another term for
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this set of deeply ingrained beliefs
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about what we are and what we need from
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life that is out of line with what we
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really are we have to acknowledge that
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the thinking mind has an amazing
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capacity to obscure a connection to the
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core of what we are doesn’t mean that
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we’re not that at our core doesn’t mean
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that we’re not what we are because we
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are but when there is the presence of
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this thinking mind it has the complete
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capacity to obscure a connection to the
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part of our self that is at peace with
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things as they are
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so this movement is fundamental hearing
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that what I am at my core something not
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something that I can be that I can know
34:36
directly not it’s it’s not good enough
34:41
so hearing that what I am of my core is
34:47
already complete in a piece already
34:51
happy with life is possibly one of the
34:57
most valuable bits of information that
35:03
life can deliver to us
35:13
because if we’re lucky that information
35:19
will here and we’ll say but that’s not
35:21
how I died
35:22
that’s not how I know myself that’s not
35:26
my experience and life when it delivers
35:31
the same information tends to be
35:36
persistent enough that it says yes but
35:39
I’m just letting you know that what you
35:41
are at your core is complete right now
35:46
so um be interested maybe in this part
35:59
of yourself that we’ve lost connection
36:03
to be interested that to know it’s there
36:10
well because you know it’s there
36:13
well at least in theory then be
36:19
interested about it so I wouldn’t
36:21
suggest that we believe that the core of
36:27
who we are is complete in a piece but
36:31
what I would suggest is it’s like
36:33
someone saying hey you know your
36:35
grandfather told me that he buried a
36:39
treasure in the back of the bat in the
36:43
backyard and he wanted you to know about
36:47
it it might be a lie but you’d be
36:56
curious about it
37:01
so if you get enough hints from life you
37:07
bump into someone else who knew your
37:10
grandfather and they tell you the same
37:13
thing and they they have a a scented
37:16
genuineness to them that same and then
37:19
life starts delivering this message to
37:24
you in more and more ways and starts
37:29
conspiring to help you investigate the
37:33
what’s in the back back garden then the
37:38
best way is to not get obsessed with
37:43
finding the treasure because it may not
37:44
be there and so that’s not a great
37:48
attitude but just a curiosity and the
37:52
next biggest gift that life gives is a
37:59
glimpse of the self let’s call it that
38:06
self with a capital S the core of our
38:09
being and that glimpse is sort of like
38:15
finding a gold coin when you’re looking
38:19
in the back garden and you find a gold
38:22
coin now you’ve been told that the
38:27
treasure is not just a gold coin but
38:29
lots of gold coins and say but you find
38:33
a gold coin and now it starts giving you
38:37
experiential proof that what has been
38:41
spoken about may actually be here
38:51
now I’m using an analogy about gulp
38:53
coins and the garden which let’s not get
38:56
confused because very easy remember the
38:59
human being is looking for happiness in
39:01
the form of gold coins pleasure things
39:06
to add to itself so it’s just an analogy
39:09
this is this is a search for something
39:17
that hasn’t actually ever been anywhere
39:20
other than here so it’s not a search out
39:25
there and when we look at the process
39:29
because it is a process it’s just the
39:33
process of unwrapping of removing the
39:40
the obstacle
39:50
which means we start bumping into this
39:55
core of the human being when the
40:00
obstacle which is the thinking mind
40:03
stops functioning as relentlessly as it
40:08
ordinarily does and in my experience
40:16
there’s a approach in a way a movement
40:26
that needs to start happening and that
40:30
movement is a movement into presence
40:38
into the present moment away from the
40:46
thinking that is always looking for
40:50
completion outside so firstly so if we
40:56
listen to this whole talk was starting
40:58
off saying that humans are looking for
41:01
happiness outside and that’s part of the
41:05
false belief system which is part of the
41:07
false identity and happiness isn’t ever
41:11
to be found out there happiness is to be
41:14
found in the form of peace of mind and
41:16
peace of mind is the falling away of the
41:19
movement of looking for happiness out
41:22
there and the movement of holding on to
41:25
blame and guilt for the events that seem
41:29
to have been a hindrance to attaining
41:33
things out there so events where people
41:36
disrespected you where people hurt you
41:38
was delivering pain to you which is the
41:41
opposite of what you’re looking for and
41:44
when you acted a certain way that meant
41:47
friends didn’t want to be your friend
41:51
anymore we say oh that was you know my
41:54
action delivered an attack on myself
41:59
essentially by
42:01
sabotaging what I’m really looking for
42:04
which is more more MORE and so we’ve got
42:08
this pile of events in the past that we
42:14
relate to as a tax on what we’re looking
42:19
for
42:24
so once we start to become clear that
42:27
this is the dynamic so remembering all
42:30
of these descriptions that’s what they
42:32
are they’re just descriptions for us
42:35
hopefully to recognize for ourself then
42:39
a movement needs to start happening
42:42
which is a movement out of that thinking
42:46
which we might not even be aware of as a
42:51
thought process because when we’re when
42:56
it’s happening and there’s complete
42:58
involvement in it it isn’t even seen as
43:03
something that isn’t me it’s known to be
43:09
what I am so they can’t there at first
43:12
there’s no space from it it’s like well
43:15
I am that you know how can I step away
43:18
from it how can I be anything other than
43:22
what are you talking about it doesn’t
43:24
seem possible and and then quite a
43:29
strange thing can happen with thoughts
43:33
the commentator in one’s head can become
43:36
seen and it’s like wow I didn’t realize
43:43
that there was all this noise happening
43:47
in there because there was complete
43:52
involvement in it oneness with it you
43:57
could say and if a shift happened
44:00
we see this incessant stream of thinking
44:04
that shift tends to happen when the
44:07
thinking has been spoken about has been
44:11
described and once the working mind
44:16
starts to receive the descriptions which
44:20
essentially is objectifying the thoughts
44:25
so the descriptions labeling the thought
44:31
that they’re sort of turning it into an
44:33
object if I can talk about the thoughts
44:37
if I can say the thoughts are about the
44:40
past about the future about seeing
44:44
oneself as the doer of what has happened
44:47
and seeing the other as the doer and
44:50
blaming oneself and saying I could have
44:52
done it differently and blaming the
44:54
other and saying you should have done it
44:56
differently if we can start labeling
45:00
those sorts essentially whether we
45:01
realize it or not what’s happening is
45:03
they are being not turned into objects
45:09
because they always were objects but our
45:11
brain can now start really redefining
45:17
them so it starts getting descriptions
45:19
about the thoughts and what is actually
45:23
what’s actually happening is that
45:26
without us knowing it an object which
45:31
was never related to as an object this
45:33
is very important an object that was
45:36
considered to be the subject because
45:40
there was so much involvement with the
45:43
objects of thought that it felt like
45:46
that’s what I am and as we speak about
45:49
thoughts as we describe them as we
45:52
pointed them they’re being objectified
45:57
the brain is starting to relate to them
46:00
as objects just by thinking about them
46:04
in a definable way and at some point the
46:10
brain
46:12
is able to become aware of the thought
46:18
when I say the brain let’s just call it
46:21
a part of the human being is able to
46:25
become and recognize another part of the
46:28
human being that wasn’t able to be seen
46:32
before because there was no distance
46:40
it’s very easy for us to see the chair
46:46
because the brain has had an experience
46:52
of the chair as an object the inner
46:58
movements a different very different
47:01
relationship to them has happened
47:04
automatically where they’re not seen as
47:06
objects they’re seen as me so the
47:12
process of talking about the inner
47:15
landscape is changing the brains
47:19
relationship to the outputs of the brain
47:24
and a and now there is the potential
47:28
that those will be seen as objects
47:31
that’s a very big shift it’s a I would
47:38
say it’s a structural change that
47:40
happens that allows thinking to be
47:44
witnessed whereas it wasn’t able to be
47:50
witnessed before and the same can be
47:54
said for emotions and feelings as
47:59
they’re described and as we start
48:03
relating to them and seeing them more
48:07
and more they become more and more known
48:10
as objects rather than the subject
48:19
and why is that important it’s important
48:23
because in order for us to know what we
48:27
are at our core a movement away from or
48:34
a reduction in the thinking mind
48:36
thoughts needs to happen and a movement
48:39
into a different gear let’s say or a
48:43
different space different place so Roger
48:58
I under the assumption that you are
49:02
prone also to go down this rabbit hole
49:04
of the thinking mind but what are the
49:08
tools that occur to you to use to get
49:12
yourself out of that rabbit hole or
49:14
Abidin I am or be in the present or drop
49:17
to the heart what are there tools that
49:20
occurred to you to use um so the process
49:24
is a process of diminishing the thinking
49:30
mind which then means there’s no need
49:32
for a tool at that point when it’s
49:35
diminished because we find that we abide
49:39
in our I am because it’s our natural
49:41
state
49:43
once it’s always been a natural state
49:46
once the the layer that obscures it is
49:52
dissolved then we don’t need any tools
49:54
anymore but um and so my experience is
49:58
that that process of getting caught in
50:02
the thinking mind has stopped yeah but
50:07
your question is exactly in line with
50:11
what we’re talking about is how does
50:14
this movement happen from being obsessed
50:18
or not not us being obsessed but where
50:21
the functioning of an incessant thinking
50:25
mind to a move
50:28
into being more and more regularly and
50:33
eventually the cessation of the thinking
50:36
mind so your question is what is the
50:40
methodology or what are some of the
50:41
tools or some of the practices
50:44
essentially that can aid that process
50:47
now the first part what I’ve been
50:50
talking about is actually very much the
50:54
first part of the process which is to
50:56
hear about the everything we’ve been
51:01
talking about that there is a core of
51:02
the human being that is right now at
51:06
peace and that it’s covered up and that
51:10
it’s covered up by the thinking so
51:11
that’s a very important part and it’s in
51:15
a way it’s not something that we just
51:17
hear um once and then we move on to the
51:21
next step
51:22
it’s something that we really need to
51:26
hear until we really get that message
51:32
now because that has to be the
51:34
foundation of being interested in tools
51:39
for example because if you hear that and
51:42
then you ask for the tools but then the
51:43
first part falls away then yeah there’s
51:48
no need for the tools essentially so the
51:51
the first part is to hear what I am at
51:54
my core is already at peace and it’s a
52:01
matter of the obstacle that gets in the
52:05
way of that falling away then the a
52:10
movement of well hearing about what
52:14
different forms of the thinking mind are
52:17
so descriptions of the thinking mind
52:20
which then allows the working mind to
52:25
see them in action
52:27
and that is where the thoughts are being
52:31
now seen as objects thoughts happening
52:35
so that’s a very significant
52:40
practice in a sense but these practices
52:43
are not practices that you do for two
52:45
hours a day they’re not even practices
52:48
you have to I’m not saying you have to
52:50
commit to doing them for ten hours a day
52:52
but it’s a a movement that will happen
52:55
automatically
52:56
once we’ve been exposed to certain
53:00
information by life but once life has
53:03
exposed us and it become part of our
53:06
system we automatically will see the
53:10
thoughts of the thinking mind for
53:12
example we automatically will have the
53:16
[Music] 53:18
information that can distinguish guilt
53:22
from blame distinguish blame from pride
53:24
pride from anxiety and worry so
53:29
essentially the landscape the inner
53:31
landscape of the thinking mind starts to
53:36
become much more well-known compared to
53:40
the jumbled that it was before and the
53:43
jumbled it was before meant not just a
53:46
jumble of the thinking mind but jumbled
53:48
up with everything else so being
53:55
equipped with this information this is
54:02
the basis of the movement or what you
54:04
could call a practice but it’s an
54:05
effortless practice it might happen for
54:09
many hours in a day I found that
54:12
happening in my dreams
54:13
so in dreams if there was any suffering
54:19
arising for the character in the dream
54:22
an investigation or a interest in there
54:26
was happening in the in the dreams at
54:29
night which is simply a demonstration of
54:34
how interested the system has become in
54:40
seeing and understanding the thinking
54:43
mind only because
54:44
system has become very interested in
54:50
remembering itself or remembering the
54:54
core of the human being the practice
55:00
which also is effortless of dropping
55:03
into I am lisore dropping into beingness
55:05
is what what I would talk about next is
55:09
that there needs to be this interest in
55:14
not in a way not cooperating or not no
55:23
not cooperating is it may be a bit harsh
55:25
but no interest in buying into the
55:30
thinking of the thinking mind that has
55:33
now been seen to not be delivering what
55:39
we truly are but to be an obstacle to it
55:43
so whenever that seen a movement away
55:49
from it right so let’s say someone is
55:53
dragging you into an argument and you
55:58
realize that as soon as you get into
55:59
defending what the person is accusing
56:03
you of
56:04
and this happens time and time again you
56:08
you realize actually I’m just buying
56:13
into it so we might decide we might find
56:19
that no I’m not interested in trying to
56:22
justify that you know the person has
56:25
their their ideas they’re completely
56:27
unfounded let’s say they’re based on
56:30
error and so I’m not even going to try
56:34
and correct the error anymore I’ve tried
56:36
but and it doesn’t work so then there’s
56:40
this movement away where there’s no
56:43
engaging you know and that’s once again
56:48
that’s an analogy and we have to come to
56:52
something similar
56:54
in relation to the thinking mind where
56:57
the thinking mind is seen and then
57:00
there’s got no interested in engaging in
57:03
that so what is the movement that
57:09
doesn’t engage in the thinking mind and
57:11
it’s a really – movement into the
57:13
present moment that’s where we have we
57:18
really have to come into the present
57:21
moment because that’s the only place we
57:22
can rest in definitely is in presence so
57:28
if we try to not be interested in the
57:31
thinking mind but remain on the same
57:35
level of thinking so or remain in them
57:41
in the space of of thinking we can’t
57:44
remain there indefinitely what that’s
57:47
the equivalent of is having your head on
57:52
a certain level above let’s say above a
57:54
board and a gas gets pumped into the
57:58
space and the best we can do is like
58:02
hold our breath because we’re still in
58:06
that in that space right um and you can
58:13
only hold your breath for let’s say a
58:14
minute so that’s not a solution on an
58:20
ongoing basis what needs to happen is we
58:24
need to find a new place to go to where
58:28
we don’t need to be holding our breath
58:31
so that means if you can find this
58:33
movement where the head drops down the
58:37
person’s head drops down below this
58:40
board so there’s a hole in the board and
58:43
the heads through and then this gas
58:44
starts coming in and it’s not a pleasant
58:46
gas and so instead of looking to hold
58:50
our breath we figure I can drop down to
58:54
another level
58:55
and you drop down to the other level you
58:57
don’t need to hold your breath you get
59:00
to breathe normally because the gas
59:02
isn’t there
59:05
and if we don’t know of this other gear
59:09
essentially that we can shift into what
59:12
we might do is understand that you know
59:15
the thinking mind is a problem and that
59:18
there’s myself that I’m not aware of and
59:22
that I need to disengage from the
59:28
thinking mind but we don’t get given or
59:39
learn about the place that we can go to
59:41
wear a disengaging happens so we end up
59:45
still on that same level where at best
59:48
you can disengage just for a an
59:52
indefinite or for a very short period of
59:55
time and then you’re back in the
59:57
thinking mind again so that’s that’s not
60:00
the solution solution is to find a shift
60:05
that allows us to shift out of the
60:09
thinking out of the thinking and that
60:12
place is here in the present moment
60:25
which means attention has to come into
60:30
the present moment attention has to
60:34
really become aware of this this as a as
60:45
a creation so this moment as an
60:56
experience
61:01
now if we relate to what’s here as you
61:06
know some chairs and a couch and you
61:10
know some walls and a door it’s really
61:13
uninteresting I think that’s not um
61:18
surely that that’s not where I’m gonna
61:20
find myself but this this moment is
61:27
something quite profound and it doesn’t
61:33
necessarily present itself as very
61:37
profound because it presents itself on
61:39
the surface as some chairs and a couch
61:41
and a wall few walls and a door and
61:46
we’ve been exposed to that our whole
61:49
life and it’s like nothing special but
61:53
that’s not what this is this is this is
61:59
an experience
62:12
and the experience is changing you on a
62:17
micro-level every moment the experience
62:22
is continually changing when we move
62:30
from one place to the next place it
62:34
becomes obvious that the experience is
62:35
different so if you walk into a
62:39
restaurant um and I’m using the words
62:45
loosely here because when we start to
62:47
become aware of is an experience we
62:49
realized well maybe the restaurant came
62:51
into me rather than me walking into the
62:54
restaurant but for the ease of
62:58
description for first we say well when
63:01
it appears like I move out of this room
63:03
into another room the experience changes
63:08
it’s not the same experience if someone
63:12
comes and puts their hand on your
63:15
shoulder and starts massaging you you
63:19
could say all the experiences changed a
63:21
minute ago or a second ago I wasn’t
63:24
feeling pressure and and it’s painful or
63:28
it’s pleasurable and then that’s change
63:31
the birds are always chirping
63:35
differently horns coming and going
63:38
people speaking stopping speaking music
63:40
coming on and off that the song is
63:42
changing we look at it on a micro level
63:45
we find the whole experience is never
63:49
the same so Heraclitus had very profound
64:01
chains you can’t step into the same
64:03
river twice and what it’s pointing at is
64:08
that you know we might say oh that’s the
64:10
River Nile it’s the same river it’s
64:13
never the same River what what he’s
64:15
talking about is it’s always in flux you
64:18
know if you can take if you take a photo
64:19
of the river in this moment
64:22
it’s completely different the next
64:24
moment and so these insights are very
64:32
important for us to start relating to
64:35
things differently so this present
64:38
moment experience is always changing and
64:46
where does it come from where does it
64:52
arise where is this experience happening
65:03
life has formed us in order in a way in
65:09
a way that gets us to relate to what’s
65:13
in front of us a very particular way and
65:17
that is that well this is an objective
65:20
reality and so you know there’s nothing
65:24
special about the couch it’s it exists
65:27
on Mother Earth in a particular house so
65:33
that nothing really special about it
65:35
but if we start looking at it
65:36
differently in we take wow this moment
65:41
is always an experience we have an
65:45
experience of the couch there is an
65:48
experience of a person so I am in your
65:55
experience
66:00
and the cars that go past are in your
66:04
experience they’re not outside of your
66:07
experience so the present moment is
66:10
always a momentary experience and to be
66:18
present with the experience as an
66:21
experience means that we’ve stepped or
66:27
stepped there’s a movement that has
66:28
happened out of the level of thinking
66:33
into the level of presence and it most
66:39
helpful if we drop the idea that a
66:42
person is experiencing the couch but
66:51
rather realize that there is experience
66:55
this is experience and the person the
67:01
body is part of the experience not the
67:08
experiencer but rather the experienced
67:14
and if we take it a step further we say
67:18
there isn’t the experienced there is
67:22
just experiencing because the
67:26
experienced can to our thinking imply an
67:32
experiencer an experiencer of the
67:34
experienced so what we’re saying is the
67:37
the person is not the experiencer but
67:41
the experienced ie part of this
67:46
momentary experience that is always
67:50
changing and really if we’re really
67:53
present there is just experiencing
67:57
meaning an experience happening
68:06
that’s right the there is experiencing
68:11
there is you have to say that there is
68:15
subjectivity in experiencing there has
68:20
to be subjectivity but the subject is
68:26
not separate from that that which is
68:31
experienced and it’s all encompassing
68:37
all pervading so the momentary
68:40
experience is it’s happening but what is
68:49
it that is aware of the experience and
68:52
these aren’t questions to answer with
68:55
our intellect not until we know from
69:02
direct experience and then from the
69:08
direct experience of what I’m pointing
69:11
out then we can put concepts onto it we
69:15
can talk put it into words so this is
69:20
not something to it’s something to be
69:25
experienced which really means bring
69:29
your attention into the present moment
69:31
and realize it’s a momentary experience
69:34
and that the person the body is part of
69:46
the experience and not a separate
69:49
experience
69:54
he had we finished a new head what just
70:01
what was your question again it was a
70:03
long time ago the answer the question I
70:05
guess is I just have to wait till grace
70:07
comes upon me oh wait no but you said
70:10
what are the practices the tools the
70:12
tools by definition there’s a tools and
70:14
there’s I’m trying to get somewhere yeah
70:20
but again well you see I don’t want to
70:23
just say to someone there’s nothing you
70:25
can do right because it isn’t entirely
70:29
like that it’s like we have we have to
70:31
see the attitude of do ership and see
70:37
that that’s getting in the way but just
70:38
listening to so your question on the one
70:42
hand is you could say invalid but on the
70:45
other hand is very valid because if
70:48
you’re asking me to just describe a
70:53
process that can happen which is all I
70:56
ever do when I describe these things so
70:58
if it sounds like I’m telling someone
71:00
there’s a separate doer to do it
71:03
understandable but I’m not
71:05
they’re just descriptions and those
71:07
descriptions are not being given to a
71:11
doer they’re being given to a biological
71:13
instrument let’s say that can is being
71:19
changed by the information and then the
71:24
biological instrument functions
71:26
automatically so it it’s not your doing
71:29
if someone says bring attention into the
71:35
present moment it can sound like it can
71:40
seem when when it happens or that I
71:43
brought attention into the present
71:46
moment but from another perspective we
71:47
can see that the body mind organism has
71:50
been given new conditioning and the
71:54
movement of attention into the present
71:57
moment
71:57
he’s a happening not the doing of an
72:02
individual it’s a happening through the
72:05
body mind organism that has been
72:06
designed by life to function that way so
72:10
I’m just providing information they can
72:15
bring a changed movement and the
72:17
information I’m providing is inspired by
72:19
your question that’s saying no I was
72:21
just curious if there was because some
72:23
of the reading that I’ve done I
72:25
understand is some some reading and some
72:34
chatting I understand there are people
72:38
that it’s it’s sort of helped them when
72:42
they’ve you know either pay attention to
72:44
their breath or meditated or and I was
72:47
just curious if those were some things
72:50
you it occurred to you to do once in a
72:53
while or not I was just yeah curiously
72:55
so um those are all part of different
73:00
methodologies so all of those things
73:03
meant mantras focusing on the breath
73:06
doing yoga and physical asanas all of
73:12
that is methodology including nandu
73:16
non-duality and mmm some non duality at
73:21
a certain point needs to say there’s
73:24
nothing for you to do there’s nowhere
73:26
for you to go because your happiness is
73:29
available right now why does it say that
73:31
it’s a methodology to interfere with the
73:34
thinking mind that might still be trying
73:36
to get somewhere including getting to
73:38
enlightenment getting to to find the
73:42
self and if if the thinking mind has
73:45
taken on that task non-duality has to
73:47
come along and say this is nowhere for
73:51
you to go and nothing for there’s no no
73:54
practice no techniques
73:56
um because one there’s no one to do them
74:00
and secondly you don’t need to get
74:03
anywhere so and and it can be very
74:10
powerful
74:13
but the fact is that there is a process
74:15
and so that teaching that says you know
74:21
there’s no one there to do anything
74:24
which is different in a way – you’re not
74:27
the doer right it’s not there’s subtle
74:31
differences
74:33
if someone says this you can’t do
74:37
anything there’s nothing for you to do
74:39
is a bit different to saying you’re not
74:42
the doer um but then describing a lot of
74:46
things describing a lot of mechanics
74:48
they’re different methodologies so
74:51
there’s some teachings that will just
74:53
say you know your question itself just
74:56
you’ve got it all wrong you know there
75:00
there isn’t anywhere to go you’re trying
75:02
to get somewhere you’re asking me what’s
75:04
the methodology to get to some imaginary
75:07
place so correct that thinking and even
75:13
you know you’re you’re not there to
75:15
correct it even you know and I’m not
75:18
here telling you to correct it this is
75:21
just words happening who cares
75:24
don’t worry about them don’t think about
75:25
you know that’s it that’s a teaching
75:27
methodology that understands a certain
75:31
movement of the thinking mind and it
75:33
understands how to run interference you
75:36
know and it will say there’s no teacher
75:38
there’s no teaching because if it says
75:41
there’s a teaching and a teacher then
75:42
the thinking might might say okay if
75:44
there’s a teacher then there’s a student
75:46
and the student then obviously has to
75:49
learn what the teacher is teaching and
75:52
so I have to work hard and think which
75:56
can be more of the thinking mind and so
75:59
all of these things are said with a
76:02
reason in mind right and so that
76:07
teaching that says it’s not a teaching
76:08
is a teaching saying it’s not a teaching
76:11
it’s a methodology to bring about a
76:14
particular change
76:20
and you know Buddhism will tell you
76:23
right action right thought although the
76:27
methodology it’s it they’re all very
76:29
different and they’re all completely
76:30
valid and what I’m saying is one
76:34
methodology one of those teachings and
76:39
so your question was was there a tool
76:42
you used and what I’ve just described is
76:45
a very significant I wouldn’t
76:49
necessarily call it a tool but once you
76:51
reconditioned it might start happening
76:54
and you you could call it a tool it’s
76:57
okay if we call it a tool as long as we
76:59
realize we’re actually it’s just in a
77:01
moment the thought arises be here with
77:05
this experience as knowing it as an
77:07
experience not just saying it’s an
77:09
experience but then being here with the
77:11
walls and the couch that’s not knowing
77:13
it as an experience be here with the
77:17
experience realizing that if we really
77:21
come into the presence with the
77:22
experience when it’s all arising in
77:25
awareness there is an awareness that
77:30
seems like on one level to be the
77:33
awareness of the person of the body and
77:35
from a different perspective we might
77:37
say wow no this is just awareness and
77:41
the whole thing is arising in awareness
77:44
and the body is just an object like the
77:48
couch and like the other people which
77:50
are really not separate there’s just a
77:52
single arising
78:04
so that’s one of the tools um lots of
78:12
questions but I’ll try and make it one
78:17
when you talk about experience of one
78:22
room to the next or say from this room
78:25
to the restaurant it seems like like
78:31
you’re talking about the physical visual
78:33
experience that’s a very big part of
78:36
experience yes yes but mostly what I
78:42
find and this connects also to the
78:47
question that gentleman asked is going
78:50
back into this rabbit hole as he calls
78:53
it of the mind
78:54
so I find yes I can change rooms and I
78:58
can change cities and countries or
79:02
whatever but somehow I’m still in the
79:05
grips of the thinking mind once the
79:09
visual experience which you which you
79:13
say is a large part of the experience
79:17
goes and I’m back in my room or in my
79:21
bathroom and I’m like oh my god it’s
79:24
like ripped me again and then there’s a
79:28
sense of frustration that I can
79:30
experience new partners new
79:33
relationships and new cities and new
79:36
foods but somehow some old tattoos which
79:42
is the ones that I want to get rid of
79:45
because they are the ones that are
79:46
giving me the maximum suffering and if I
79:50
didn’t have them I really would need to
79:51
change partners or cities but those are
79:54
the ones that don’t really budge very
79:56
much and the visual experience is
80:01
beautiful sensory and I love it and I
80:05
can forget the thinking mind for the
80:07
moment and then it comes back so I’m
80:11
really looking to wash that tattoo out
80:14
and I’m not the doer
80:17
yeah so um well you see you have to the
80:27
do no one has ever been a doer in the
80:30
history of time there’s never been a
80:32
doer and there has always been life
80:35
happening there’s just been a belief
80:37
that I am the doer right
80:39
so when we say I’m not the doer um it’s
80:45
true but what we really need to see is
80:47
that the belief in what I’m talking
80:52
about about the belief of do in der ship
80:54
is an attitude and that attitude can
80:56
come in to the seeking so we could say
81:00
what I want to get rid of is this old
81:03
tattoo right that could be the problem
81:07
in and of itself because the the
81:13
insistence in the body mind organism is
81:17
life needs to change from the way it is
81:21
yes yeah now for so I can say that
81:32
actually you know you can’t do it you
81:39
can’t make this happen so put your tools
81:46
down
81:57
I can’t you see yeah exactly
82:01
even that is not in your control but the
82:06
reason it said is not to give someone to
82:10
be insensitive or to make someone feel
82:14
even more depressed right it might make
82:17
someone feel even more depressed I tend
82:20
I hope I don’t do it in the way that
82:23
I’ve seen it being done and I don’t even
82:26
know that the other way is not going to
82:29
be very beneficial but it can be done in
82:32
a way where there’s no connection to the
82:36
other person and where they’re coming
82:37
from
82:38
right where we say you know there’s
82:40
nothing you can do and leaves the other
82:43
person hanging what so it’s appropriate
82:48
to point out that there’s nothing you
82:51
can do to some people in some second and
82:53
other times it’s not but if we’re
82:56
looking at this exchange that we’re
82:58
having now you can see where your
83:04
question is coming from right the
83:06
question is I I want to get rid of the
83:15
tattoo or the the residual components
83:20
that keep dragging me out and or keep
83:24
making life so uncomfortable tell me how
83:30
to do that and at the core of those
83:42
belief systems that which is making life
83:46
uncomfortable you know what’s at the
83:49
core of that I’m the doer yeah which
83:53
means the belief that I and the other
83:57
person are in control of making life
84:00
happen a certain way that’s that’s what
84:05
the uncomfortableness is
84:09
that’s what is that’s what you’re saying
84:13
I hope to be able to undo that oh let’s
84:17
make it passive you say I hope that can
84:21
get undone right
84:23
that’s a healthier way right because if
84:28
we say so the this is the core of the
84:34
problem is the deeply ingrained belief
84:37
that I am the doer that can make life
84:39
happen a certain way right so if the
84:44
seeking is approached with the attitude
84:52
just tell me what I need to do in order
84:55
to make life a certain way just tell me
84:57
what I need to do in order to get rid of
85:00
this load I mean you might see that what
85:05
is that the core of that load is the
85:08
belief that I am the one that made life
85:12
happen a certain way and or doer ship
85:16
that’s the uncomfortableness and what’s
85:20
presenting in the present moment is more
85:24
of that right when we say so how how do
85:32
I do it how do I get rid of this load
85:35
and so with compassion I’m saying you
85:43
can’t and I’m saying it so that
85:48
hopefully it can be seen that oh I can’t
85:52
like Oh or felt or it maybe it hits
85:57
where a surrender happens to and I so I
86:04
mean it sincerely the party can’t make
86:06
this happen
86:16
this is not sad news because if in this
86:21
moment there is a surrendering the words
86:25
come in and instead of the words
86:26
sounding like this is really bad news
86:30
why are you telling me this you know I
86:33
don’t want to hear that I can’t make it
86:34
happen the core at the the problem at
86:40
the core is the belief that was in place
86:47
a long time ago that I can make life
86:54
happen so if we hear this I can’t make
87:00
life happy I’m not making life happen I
87:02
never have been making life happen
87:06
that’s the undoing of the problem so
87:13
it’s ironic it sounds like bad news it
87:18
sounds like you can’t do it is an attack
87:24
in a sense on what you’re looking for
87:29
but if if we register that on this outer
87:34
level instead of continually trying to
87:41
make it happen that’s the beginning of
87:46
the problem being undone for as long as
87:50
we keep trying to make it happen on the
87:52
outer level the outer level is like
87:54
right now tell me how to do it as long
87:57
as we keep trying to make it happen on
87:59
the outer level then the problem is is
88:03
is being intensified the core of the
88:08
problem is being reinforced and
88:11
intensified so as soon as on the outer
88:14
level go I can’t do it like oh I’m not
88:20
meant to do it no one has ever done it
88:23
no one has ever as a doer
88:28
got themselves out of suffering the
88:35
suffering ends when it dawns on us I’m
88:37
not the doer what great news I’m serious
88:52
you know it means that you’re not
88:54
responsible for your life in turn when
89:00
you look back on your life you know
89:02
you’re not the one that succeeded or
89:05
failed as in you as a separate doer
89:10
doesn’t that that that self image we
89:13
have of ourselves as a separate doer in
89:16
control just never existed it was never
89:19
what was making life turn out a
89:21
particular way but more specifically was
89:28
I wanted to ask you if the climate of
89:31
the mind can change the thoughts that
89:36
come repeatedly in the mind the quality
89:39
of thoughts the can they be higher
89:44
quality can your judgments drop sure so
89:48
the quality of thoughts or if you look
89:51
at the thoughts that you’re talking
89:52
about the core of those thoughts is doer
89:54
ship so if you judge the other let’s say
89:59
you’re saying you are a separate doer
90:02
that could heaven should have done it
90:03
better you’re not living up to society’s
90:09
standards you’re not living up to my
90:11
standards why not you can you can you
90:16
can function differently in this moment
90:18
that that attitude is an attitude that
90:21
isn’t seeing the other as an instrument
90:24
of life doing exactly what life is
90:28
dictating that they do so that is not a
90:36
great quality of thought you know that
90:38
from your own experience it comes in and
90:40
it means that instead of there being
90:43
harmony with the other there is
90:45
disharmony with the other and that this
90:47
harmony is contained in the in that
90:48
thinking process in that set of thoughts
90:51
and and in their condensed form it’s
90:54
feeling right even a feeling of hatred
90:57
towards the other so the judgment it’s
90:59
not just on the thought lever life you
91:02
should be doing this differently it can
91:03
be like a feeling of hatred judgment
91:08
blame resentment towards the other
91:13
so you’re saying can the quality of
91:15
those thoughts change I say of course
91:18
they it can if the root from which those
91:22
thoughts are coming gets changed meaning
91:28
the root of seeing yourself and the
91:31
other is the doer now we want to try and
91:36
change the root by maintaining the same
91:39
belief on the outer level so you can’t
91:45
change the root unless on the outer
91:50
level to start with the outer level
91:52
means you know you have to start from
91:56
the outside inwards we can’t expect to
91:59
change the belief at the core from doer
92:04
ship to seeing that there is no doer
92:08
when we’re trying to solve the problem
92:11
from a place of do ership so that’s why
92:16
when it dawns on us on the outside let
92:20
me not worry about the core of the
92:23
suffering for now let me see if possible
92:28
that the suffering is a happening so
92:33
when the judgment happens understand
92:39
that that isn’t your doing in the
92:42
present moment right you’re not making
92:46
that happen
92:48
it’s happening what would your
92:53
explanation be to me as to why it’s
92:56
happening try and make it impersonal an
93:00
impersonal explanation of dynamics sort
93:03
of mechanics why what is happening why
93:08
is the judgement arising on what basis
93:22
can you give me an example
93:24
yes so if I if you see a cigarette
93:34
burning and I say so why is the ash
93:42
component getting bigger on the
93:45
cigarette yeah what’s your explanation
93:49
that’s a no-brainer yeah it’s it’s
93:54
burning that’s good yep it’s Bonnie
93:56
okay there’s nothing personal about that
93:58
no so then if I say to you why is
94:02
judgment arising in the cigarette ash
94:06
burning note that that was an analogy
94:08
that was a um something that hopefully
94:13
allows us to see what I mean by you know
94:17
why is the ash component getting bigger
94:19
oh because a burning process is
94:22
happening yes why is judgement happening
94:27
in this moment like if it if it was
94:31
happening in a moment why is the
94:32
judgment happening I just just can’t
94:34
give me a description of why it’s
94:36
happening so it’s happening right now
94:41
I’m judging the the talks a little bit
94:46
because I somehow feel that there there
94:52
are a lot of words
94:57
and of course I know that I’ve been
95:03
helped by these words a lot it’s just
95:09
that I not aware so closely because
95:12
every everyday the conditioning breaks
95:15
away a little bit but I’m with myself
95:17
all the time so I don’t know how much
95:18
I’ve changed but I somehow feel like I
95:21
haven’t so I mean I’m told that things
95:26
have changed and there’s movement but I
95:28
somehow judge myself and then I judged
95:36
the dogs and where does the judgment
95:40
come from from the fact that it should
95:46
be faster or there has to be more speed
95:52
or so who who does the judging
96:06
I’m not the door no but don’t just say
96:10
words who who is doing the judging this
96:19
you can just be just honest from your
96:24
own answer what do you mean just you
96:28
don’t have to give their answer right
96:30
the right answer is the one that just is
96:34
your natural answer
96:36
it’s judging just comes all the time and
96:40
I feel like it’s who’s doing the judging
96:43
I am okay and who’s who’s this I just
96:53
not no right answer just your answer i
97:00
me just the person who normally gets
97:06
things done
97:07
mm-hm i I can do a lot of stuff and this
97:13
one doesn’t seem to be going so fast
97:15
yeah it’s too slow so what was the
97:19
description and the teaching as to um
97:22
where why the person functions the way
97:27
they function because of their genes and
97:29
up-to-date-conditioning right and those
97:33
two factors did you have anything to do
97:36
do with those no no
97:38
so who made you the way you are now
97:44
my genes and up-to-date-conditioning
97:45
yeah so that’s part of life let’s say
97:49
yes so life designed you to be this way
97:54
yeah right so who is the doer of the
97:59
outputs of the person
98:06
who can we say is responsible the
98:14
parents no but like you were just about
98:19
to say so life put the genes and
98:22
up-to-date-conditioning in place the
98:24
genes and up-to-date-conditioning force
98:26
the human to function a particular way
98:30
right yeah that’s why we function that
98:33
way just because of these factors that
98:36
we weren’t in control of part of life
98:38
life put them in place so when judgment
98:43
happens why is it happening because of
98:51
yes and who’s responsible for that good
99:02
life so when the judgment happens you
99:09
might be able to see it as a happening
99:11
according to life yeah right
99:16
so that attitude which is the attitude
99:24
on the outer level the attitude that is
99:29
aware of the judgment happening and says
99:35
this is life doing this right this is a
99:42
result of not me what does that mean it
99:48
means you have a bit of distance you are
99:52
the the suffering the judgment is now
99:56
essentially something you are aware of
99:59
yes an object happening a thought object
100:04
arising a mental movement happening and
100:09
you are that which is aware of it your
100:15
uninvolved in it
100:17
if you can truly see that it’s a result
100:22
of my genes and up-to-date-conditioning
100:25
life put that in place so the suffering
100:28
is life happening yes so that is non
100:38
involvement so let’s just go back what’s
100:43
at the core of the problem if we go
100:50
right to the core its involvement
100:53
involvement means doer ship and
100:56
attachment to outcomes yes so the way
100:58
that that era at the very deepest part
101:03
gets fixed is when a different attitude
101:06
comes in on the outer level so the
101:10
attitude that is most useful is an
101:15
attitude of seeing the judgment as a
101:18
happening part of the predetermined
101:22
story of life an inevitable inevitable
101:25
‘ti in that moment and once again to the
101:33
mind this can sound like not a very good
101:38
solution it’s like well you haven’t got
101:42
rid of the suffering ever you have you
101:43
you thanks for nothing but the actual
101:49
act of being uninvolved in the suffering
101:52
is freedom from that suffering and if
101:58
that becomes the prevailing attitude
102:01
towards your suffering the attitude of
102:05
nandu ership is setting in on the outer
102:09
level and it will only have one way to
102:11
go which is inward this is why often
102:17
it’s misunderstood it’s like saying well
102:20
if you tell someone there’s nothing that
102:22
they can do you know that’s that’s not
102:26
very helpful but
102:29
if we can understand why there’s nothing
102:32
we can do why we’re not the ones that
102:34
have made the suffering happen so you’re
102:37
not the one that’s going to fix it it’s
102:41
not your job to fix it that life is
102:45
doing the suffering that life fix it and
102:52
if that starts to be your attitude to
102:55
the suffering because normally what’s
102:57
the attitude to the suffering
102:59
involvement in the suffering I think
103:02
wanting it to go away
103:05
resisting it saying why am i blaming why
103:11
am i judging I should know better by now
103:15
that’s more suffering on top of the
103:20
judgment a judgment of yourself on top
103:23
of the judgment of the other so this
103:30
that sounds like it’s of no use this
103:34
telling someone that they’re not the
103:35
doer as long as we can show the dynamics
103:39
and it becomes an insight rather than
103:42
just someone saying are not the doer
103:44
like really you need to know the basis
103:47
on which the suffering is arising so
103:51
that’s why I said on what basis is the
103:54
suffering arising the answer like you
103:56
said my genes and
103:57
up-to-date-conditioning and life put the
104:01
genes and up-to-date-conditioning in
104:02
place so that’s not my doing that’s
104:04
life’s doing so let life deal with it
104:14
hmm it’s not going to be satisfying to
104:19
the intellect hearing this if a shift if
104:25
a new attitude to the suffering happens
104:29
which it could we’re having a discussion
104:32
right about the most important component
104:36
so if tomorrow you feel judgment a
104:41
thought might come up and say that’s
104:45
life happening not my job to fix it if
104:52
that happens and that’s not you doing it
104:55
right if you pretend that there’s
105:00
nothing to do about it it won’t feel
105:02
like there’s any peace but if something
105:04
truly sees the suffering the judgment as
105:09
a happening and it then automatically
105:13
says I can’t fix that that’s I didn’t
105:17
I’m not capable of fixing that really we
105:22
aren’t capable of fixing it the freedom
105:24
comes when we stop being interested in
105:26
fixing it no it’s like someone who’s
105:30
obsessed with all of the domestic
105:37
problems that all of the neighbors are
105:39
having right and as soon as the
105:41
neighbors have a domestic problem
105:42
they’re there they they’re into it
105:44
trying to break up the the fight and all
105:48
of this and they’re saying the person is
105:51
saying why don’t I have any peace in my
105:54
life why don’t I have any any space and
106:00
the answer is because you keep going in
106:02
and fighting everyone’s fight you become
106:06
part of the fight and if it really dawns
106:12
on them it’s like ah I don’t need to be
106:14
involved in this person’s fights and
106:17
that person’s fights and that person’s
106:19
fights in that person’s fight if it
106:21
really dawns on them then you know they
106:23
might as soon as they hear a fight they
106:26
get up and start running over and
106:28
it clicks actually it’s not my fight and
106:31
they go back home and they’re ah look at
106:35
that
106:36
I’m I’ve got my free time and my space
106:40
and so all the problem was was that each
106:45
time there was a fight in one of the
106:47
neighboring houses they get up and go
106:49
and fight the fight it’s not your fight
106:53
they have same with the with the
106:56
suffering when it arises its arising
106:59
because it’s an inevitability in that
107:02
moment if something truly can understand
107:08
it’s not my fight to fight the the
107:12
suffering an experience experiential
107:18
freedom will be experienced and then
107:22
when it’s that experiential freedom is
107:24
experienced we start realizing this is
107:29
the way the way is to become
107:33
dispassionate about certain things in
107:36
life to be uninterested in certain
107:41
things in them and we realize that that
107:43
this passion is not unfortunate often
107:49
when we think about being dispassionate
107:51
about things in life we think that
107:53
that’s very unfortunate there are some
107:55
things that when we’re dispassionate
107:58
about some things it creates a freedom
108:01
that we’re looking for
108:12
yes so when I’m talking about the
108:16
experience changing I’m not talking
108:19
about having a great experience um that
108:22
you get excited about and interested in
108:25
that’s not the sort of experience of I’m
108:29
saying if you’re sitting in your
108:31
bathroom and let’s say it’s a
108:34
particularly old unattractive bathroom
108:38
and it has cracks in the tiles and the
108:43
sink leaks there’s nothing really
108:46
special about your bathroom when the
108:50
judgement arises
108:52
maybe you’ve become interested in the
108:56
present moment experience which includes
108:58
the rather uncomfortable objective
109:04
judgment in there right become present
109:08
with the whole experience the visuals of
109:11
the bathroom the sounds and awareness of
109:17
the suffering as well and be with the
109:21
experience as just an impersonal
109:25
experience because that’s one that’s a
109:33
movement into the place that allows us
109:35
to be uninterested uninvolved in the
109:42
judgement if we remain on the level of
109:46
the thinking and don’t come into the
109:48
present moment and just allow the whole
109:52
experience to be as it is then we’re
109:55
forced to get involved in the judgment
110:00
see how that goes
110:08
Raja namaste
110:09
my name is Shiva Kumar I am coming from
110:12
Hyderabad I’m here for two days in Pune
110:15
so you don’t want to miss this
110:16
opportunity to be here I first of all I
110:20
should bow down at the feet of mahadji I
110:24
read him and I heard him animacy of
110:27
course again I saw him in the videos
110:29
YouTube and I read him and you are the
110:32
third in the guru parampara so at least
110:34
I thought I will be able to see you here
110:36
so I’m so glad to be here a few days
110:39
back came across your YouTube videos and
110:41
then the concept was very refreshing so
110:45
but had a few doubts I do not know how
110:48
much it connects to the theme of the
110:50
discussion for the day
110:51
Roger is it okay if I come out with
110:53
something totally different than what is
110:55
being discussed here – no I mean of
110:56
course related to your concept sure yes
110:58
okay so I come from South India from a
111:03
Brahmin family your growing up in the
111:05
culture and we heard of lot of the lives
111:11
of saints the stories and one thing that
111:16
is very much in our culture is the
111:18
personal aspect of the God as much as
111:21
the impersonal aspect in fact even with
111:25
realized Saints like to corral or
111:30
mahadji we see that they indulge in
111:33
budgin the indulge in partnering giving
111:37
a name and form doing Aarthi stuff like
111:40
that so this is a culture so weight is
111:43
the personal God aspect fit into this
111:46
concept is was I was wondering about
111:48
that particularly I also when I thought
111:51
about it I felt it severed the bhakti
111:52
now you talk about surrender in a
111:54
particular way but I felt the bug the
111:56
way does it fit in into your own concept
111:58
would like to hear that I had a few more
112:00
questions but I would be kind of issac
112:03
robbing everybody’s opportunity I felt a
112:06
little greedy because I’m here only for
112:07
one more day tomorrow but I thought I’d
112:09
at least take this opportunity very good
112:11
and I’m be happy to give you here for
112:16
one more day tomorrow we can have a
112:18
address more of the questions so when
112:24
there’s lots of reasons why we can keep
112:31
doing certain rituals even after certain
112:37
realizations so sometimes it’s it seems
112:41
strange that people will continue to in
112:46
a way worship a deity when the
112:51
realization is that they are God in a
112:54
sense or that there is no separation and
112:57
the explanation for it is that even with
113:01
that realization the paradox of life
113:04
whereby both the relative and the
113:07
absolute coexist remains in place so
113:11
even though we can maybe come to know
113:14
ourself as more than just the physical
113:16
body come to know ourself as the space
113:21
let’s say in which everything arises
113:23
come in contact with a part of ourself
113:25
that is what would be referred to as the
113:30
absolute the human aspect the relative
113:35
aspect doesn’t suddenly end if that
113:39
realization brought about the end of the
113:41
relative then we could say oh well the
113:44
relative is part of the illusion part of
113:48
the misunderstanding part of the
113:49
ignorance and so then realization means
113:55
the end of the relative the end of that
113:58
because it’s part of the ignorant but
114:00
what happens is that with the
114:02
realization the relative aspect doesn’t
114:06
fall away so it means that the relative
114:08
is not part of ignorance duality on one
114:14
level doesn’t fall away so when we look
114:16
at the in yang symbol it’s very it’s
114:23
it’s
114:23
symbolic in that it has duality in it
114:28
interconnected opposites yin and yang
114:32
hard and soft and the symbology is that
114:36
the two balance each other to create a
114:39
whole so what often happens in
114:45
awakenings is that and in the teachings
114:50
is that one aspect is spoken about the
114:54
whole and in order for the whole to be
114:57
seen we sometimes need to say that the
115:02
duality doesn’t exist because on the
115:05
surface the duality is preventing us
115:09
from seeing the whole so part of the
115:14
methodology often is to denounce the
115:18
duality as illusory it’s not there
115:21
essentially what it’s doing is it’s
115:23
rubbing out the black and the white
115:27
which never really can get rubbed out
115:29
but through the teachings the teachings
115:32
essentially can brainwash us in a
115:35
healthy way to not see the black and the
115:37
white fro are and then they say do you
115:41
see that’s a whole one circular whole it
115:47
isn’t to and because the teachings have
115:53
point been pointing at not the black and
115:56
the white and saying the black and the
115:57
white is not really is not real so they
116:02
it’s created the capacity for us to no
116:04
longer see the black and the white
116:06
whereas it’s actually still there um we
116:10
can then become convinced that the black
116:12
and white don’t exist but the real power
116:15
of the in yang is to be able to come
116:19
back and see that yin-yang is both the
116:24
non-dual and the dual and to hold it all
116:28
that paradox and so the paradox is that
116:33
I know myself as God you could say and
116:36
as the individual and so as still
116:40
knowing myself as the individual
116:42
gratitude towards Ramesh for example
116:45
still arises gratitude towards life
116:49
still arises where if we say well didn’t
116:52
you know there is no duality there is no
116:54
relative that was all the illusion then
116:57
our brain can’t comprehend why we would
117:04
have certain feelings because they that
117:09
certain feelings imply duality in them
117:12
right so hopefully this is an
117:14
explanation that says explains why
117:17
Maharaj
117:18
would continue to do certain rituals the
117:24
other explanation is he’s done it for
117:27
his whole life it gives him pleasure
117:29
because pleasure and pain is still part
117:31
of the flow of life and so why stop it
117:39
what would be interesting to know Roger
117:40
is that let us say before awakening
117:43
somebody is doing the ritual and post
117:46
awakening they continue to do the ritual
117:48
because that’s their practice would
117:50
there be a difference in attitude when
117:52
they still do it very much I would say
117:55
because if you look at the very
117:58
beginning of a ritual there’s usually
118:00
someone trying to get something out of
118:03
the ritual if they do it you know
118:07
walking around the mountain in our own
118:09
Angela
118:10
every time you walk around you’re
118:12
erasing your karma so it so goes the
118:15
tradition or and so you see a lot of
118:18
people that are walking around just in
118:22
order for their karma to be erased you
118:25
know whether I have to do this in order
118:27
to get something and I have to do it
118:31
better than anyone else you know if I
118:33
can if I can be completely focused and
118:36
become an expert at the ritual then I’ll
118:40
things will move even more efficiently
118:43
and that can happen in meditation you
118:46
can people can meditate for years trying
118:49
to get some
118:50
which means there’s a meditator in the
118:52
meditation like someone who is judging
118:55
the meditation as going well or not well
118:58
and as the process continues which is
119:02
essentially the the process of moving
119:04
towards liberation it becomes clear that
119:07
meditation real meditation happens when
119:10
the meditator falls away um so we’ve
119:16
heard Romesh used to mention Nijinsky
119:20
dances best when the jinn skis not there
119:23
so the jinn ski the ballet dancer that
119:26
was his his comment meaning and artists
119:29
know that um writers and artists is once
119:33
the individual that is trying to make
119:37
the best painting gets out of the way
119:40
then there is just painting painting
119:42
happens and then is that’s the movement
119:46
of connection to the deeper part of
119:49
ourselves so when an artist is in their
119:54
flow as in is in in art it’s a gift for
119:58
the artist because it means that person
120:00
has an outlet where they can the
120:03
thinking mind the doing trying to get
120:06
something can fall away and then magic
120:09
happens after when someone says you know
120:13
that’s an amazing gift you have an
120:17
amazing painting sometimes the heart is
120:20
sort of no well actually you know I
120:22
can’t really take that much credit for
120:25
it it sort of happens through me or they
120:30
receive all this praise and then the
120:31
thinking mind comes in and claims
120:34
ownership over what has happened and
120:38
then there’s a sense of pride and when
120:41
that happens I think the artists feel it
120:44
they they know because it feels
120:46
uncomfortable so the ritual when
120:54
the practicer when the practices become
120:57
becomes very mature the practice
120:59
becoming mature is really where it
121:01
becomes effortless and there’s no
121:02
practice ER and so liberation is really
121:06
the liberation from this doer and so
121:10
after liberation when the when the
121:12
rituals are still being done just like
121:15
all of life it’s being done with a
121:17
completely different attitude to where
121:19
the rituals started from it’s being done
121:22
with an attitude of it happening because
121:26
it’s part of life in this moment no one
121:30
there mentally saying I don’t want to be
121:33
doing this why am I doing this now am i
121:35
doing it well enough for whatever all of
121:37
that’s fallen away and there’s this
121:39
ritual happening in the case of Ramesh
121:42
he promised his mother that when she was
121:47
dying I think she she wanted him you
121:49
know please tell me that you’ll carry on
121:52
with your rituals and he loved his
121:54
mother in that moment it seemed like
121:56
that’s what she wanted so he promised
121:58
yourself I promise every morning I’ll do
122:00
my rituals and he said that he continued
122:02
to do his rituals because he promised
122:04
his mother he would do the rituals um
122:07
but I would also say that he continued
122:10
to do the rituals not out of a should I
122:13
should because I promised my mother but
122:16
because the promise was seen to be
122:20
something and the love for his mother
122:21
was seen to be something genuine and so
122:25
then he would have it would have been
122:27
part of his genes and
122:28
up-to-date-conditioning to do that and
122:30
no thinking mind saying you know why did
122:32
I make that promise or have something
122:38
very similar that my mother told me and
122:39
then I do abhishekam of her she why
122:41
every morning at my home so the same
122:44
thing I felt or a period of time
122:45
initially it was a ritual and then at
122:47
times I used to feel my getting late to
122:49
the office and my mother’s but did you
122:51
do it and then so something is okay I
122:53
had to do it right off elite have been
122:57
seeing that love and enjoyment in the
123:00
way it happens and it just like you said
123:02
this from probably the impact of first
123:07
on working
123:08
not issue there’s more observation about
123:10
what is happening there at times there’s
123:13
a lot of compression happy any Lauda to
123:15
music and then but they myself so a lot
123:18
of law I feel at that time so these are
123:21
some of the experiences but anyway any
123:23
associated one small if I am not
123:24
delaying can I ask you one more question
123:26
yes ok associated question is about this
123:31
music I have been from my childhood I
123:34
have been into classical music the
123:36
Carnatic classical music which is South
123:38
Indian music
123:38
you must have heard something in
123:40
Tiruvannamalai a little of that is so I
123:42
love that and then when I when I’m
123:45
sitting that when I listen I get there
123:48
is something that happens Raja what
123:49
happens
123:50
I feel palpably in the body that kind of
123:52
pulsation which is so intensely joyful
123:55
very beautiful it just passes as shadows
123:58
throughout life and I see that there’s
124:00
no thought at the time absolutely no
124:02
thought you know many times earlier I
124:05
used to think that that’s the and even
124:07
when I am not listening to that many
124:09
times I feel that you know it just I can
124:12
see that it just starts somewhere and
124:14
then radiates throughout the body that
124:16
sensation the pulsation kind of thing as
124:19
a warmth and beautiful feeling so what’s
124:22
that what’s that you could say that it
124:26
is a complex expression of the self and
124:38
in certain moments when the thinking
124:41
mind falls away and were connected to
124:43
the self the self can manifest in more
124:47
complex expressions to what I would
124:50
describe as the lowest common
124:53
denominator of the self so the lowest
124:55
common denominator of the self is simply
124:57
being a piece where there isn’t any
125:00
particular sensation that you could put
125:05
your finger on maybe at best you would
125:08
say there is a very mild sense of
125:12
contentment just with being but
125:16
if you try to find it if you try to feel
125:20
it it’s not in its lowest common
125:22
denominator form it becomes much more
125:26
accurate to refer to it as in its
125:28
negative form the negation of things so
125:31
that’s why Buddha often referred to it
125:34
in its negative form the absence of
125:37
suffering but that true self can express
125:43
in more complex forms gratitude joy or
125:48
the agape is this unconditional love so
125:56
when that happens you can feel almost
126:00
like a sensation in the body maybe it’s
126:04
not the physical body but one of the
126:05
other subtle bodies and that’s beautiful
126:12
it really is a sign of the mystery of
126:16
what we are and it can it can arise such
126:20
that it is it’s in an unconditional love
126:25
forms what it feels like it’s
126:27
unconditional love and I would say that
126:33
because we are more impressed with
126:36
feelings the lowest common denominator
126:41
just the peace the absence of suffering
126:45
tends to go unnoticed and unappreciated
126:47
but then when we have these feelings
126:51
come in and we know it to be not a
126:54
normal state and actually sense it to be
126:56
very profound I think in a day or two
126:59
before you explicitly the contrast
127:01
effect or something like yeah especially
127:03
when yeah when there’s been suffering
127:06
before but even if there’s no stuff no
127:09
suffering but when it’s one of the more
127:12
complex expressions of self it comes in
127:15
as a sort of as something added like a
127:18
feeling then we get interested in that
127:20
and because there is this intuition that
127:23
this is part of the self then we say oh
127:26
well you know liberation is said to be
127:29
such
127:29
nanda and ananda is translated as bliss
127:34
when we look at ananda in its
127:37
transcendental form as it’s used
127:40
traditionally in in the in sanskrit i’ve
127:44
heard a dissertation from physicists
127:47
that was not just the physicists but had
127:51
a seemed like a very complete
127:53
understanding I was familiar with
127:54
Sanskrit he said actually a nun there is
127:57
not the right Oh bliss is not the right
128:00
translation for the word and under peace
128:02
is much much closer in its
128:05
transcendental form and so Ramesh would
128:09
say this notion that such chit Ananda
128:12
and that an under is the result and when
128:17
it’s translators is one of the big
128:19
obstacles in a way in spirituality and
128:23
he said it should be such it Shanti
128:26
instead of such it Ananda so when these
128:32
more complex versions of it come up
128:34
which you could then say are bliss let’s
128:36
say we get to enjoy it but hopefully we
128:39
don’t make the mistake which can be so
128:41
easily made when we sense that this is a
128:43
profound sense of who I am this feeling
128:46
and this vibration that that is what
128:50
will be delivered on a continuous
128:51
unbroken basis in liberation now maybe
128:56
there is there are deeper and deeper
129:00
expressions of liberation right in this
129:03
teaching what it says is the liberation
129:05
that we’re looking for and we’re really
129:07
looking for is simply the liberation
129:10
from suffering the peace of mind and my
129:14
experiences when that’s delivered
129:17
honestly I’d say I couldn’t care less
129:20
whether these whether a deeper form of
129:25
liberation exists if it comes it comes
129:28
but what I would maintain is what we’re
129:31
really looking for is the freedom from
129:35
suffering and if there are any other
129:38
forms of liberation beyond that there’s
129:41
something very certain to me
129:43
I don’t think that they would be
129:44
available unless the liberation from
129:49
suffering on a continuous basis has
129:51
first set in it would make sense that if
129:53
there are more complex and more
129:57
different forms of enlightenment they
130:01
have to build from let’s say a basic
130:04
form of enlightenment I’m not really
130:07
saying that there is a different these
130:09
different forms over line because it
130:11
makes it sound like are the basic form
130:12
of enlightenment peace well that’s not
130:15
not so swear I tell you I couldn’t care
130:18
less about any more complex forms of
130:20
liberation so experientially when the
130:25
end of suffering becomes a standard
130:28
there is this undoubted nough says
130:32
always ever been looking for is nothing
130:37
more and nothing less than peace peace
130:40
of mind
130:40
the a pleasant absence of suffering well
130:44
you’re saying just to end it up I was
130:46
reminded of that one line in
130:49
bhagavad-gita says nana-chan tear an
130:52
anthem this the shanti that comes after
130:55
wisdom may be ladies like the peace that
130:57
passeth understanding may be second to
130:59
that yes here but that peace to me is
131:02
the ones I’m referring to as the lowest
131:04
common denominator and Ramesh used to
131:07
call it suka shanti happiness through
131:11
peace of mind thanks so much