01-22-2019 Roger Castillo – what will I have after enlightenment that I didn’t have before?

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we um we get told about truth truth
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versus illusion let’s say and we’re told
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that we’ve forgotten who we are what we
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are that we’ve become identified with
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something we’re not and that that is the
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illusion or that is the mistake the
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error that’s being put in place and so
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when we hear this we said wow I want to
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know the truth I want to know who I am I
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want to remember because of a very
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particular reason we jump at that notion
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that there is a reason or something
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that’s that’s not quite right because we
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feel uncomfortable in life and so then
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we hear about the truth and it’s
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described you know words are put around
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it pointers to point at the truth that
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exists that we’re not recognizing and it
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can all become about truth for example
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the search can be a search for truth or
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the search for self oneself and it’s
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very valid but why are we interested in
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truth and I suggest that we’re
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interested in this notion of truth
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because there is an uncomfortableness
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that’s there in life and
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uncomfortableness that by its nature is
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uncomfortable and that means this
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uncomfortable arises in different forms
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guilt and blame and pride expectation
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and resistance to life worrying and
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anxiety so there’s a lot of different
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forms of uncomfortableness and so then
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we’re told that there’s we’ve forgotten
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who we are that’s why this uncomfortable
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is here and so then the search for truth
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begins and the practical can be
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forgotten a little bit and so I think
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that if we bring the two together and
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keep vision on both the practical and
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that which we’re not familiar with and
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work at the seeking from both angles we
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might find some movement that maybe
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hasn’t happened yet and so what I’m
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suggesting is why are we looking for
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truth what will it actually deliver that
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we don’t have before in practical terms
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and so we might um at some point so
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actually I’m just looking for truth for
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truth sake that’s all I’m seeking is
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truth or reality I say well why like
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there is a reason why you’re seeking
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there because it delivers something now
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don’t get me wrong I’m not suggesting it
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delivers something in the sense that way
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used to like you know a parcel delivery
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we get something that we didn’t have but
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something changes so what is it that
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changes what is it that will be there or
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won’t be there after liberation that was
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a– wasn’t there before
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in practical terms because if all it was
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about was coming to know oneself and
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then there was no practical difference
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after that realization i’d say who cares
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and the fact is that it is an important
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search because it delivers a practical
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difference and so the practical
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difference is in this teaching described
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as happiness for the human being that’s
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the change that happens but what is
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happiness for the humor I’m not using
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the word happiness in the way that we
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tend to relate to the word happiness
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because happiness by-and-large based on
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what we’ve been seeking in life he’s
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believed to be pleasure the attaining of
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pleasure something that feels good
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and so the happiness that this teaching
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is talking about that he’s delivered
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after coming to know what we are more
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accurately that happiness is not
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happiness through pleasure not happiness
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through circumstance but rather
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happiness in a very specific form
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happiness in the form of continuous
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unbroken peace of mind regardless of the
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circumstance that we find ourselves in
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very practical peace of mind in daily
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living peace of mind for the human being
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in daily living and so if we don’t keep
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that in mind we can go in search of some
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self that is described to us that is
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right here in order for us it’s
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available for us to recognize and we
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might find that what’s really available
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starts being delivered and we don’t
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really appreciate it and not
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appreciating it means that we’ll keep
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seeking because what’s delivered in
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practical terms is really something very
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ordinary in a way in another way it’s
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extraordinary because when you contrast
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the two ways of being the actual
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experience of life there’s a radical
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difference life filled with a load of
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psychological suffering feels very
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contracted and uncomfortable life where
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that psychological suffering has fallen
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away feels very spacious and it’s not
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just about spaciousness versus
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contraction it’s more about what is at
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the core of the contraction and
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uncomfortableness with oneself
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and uncomfortableness with the other and
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therefore an uncomfortableness of
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resistance with life and so the
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peace of mind is the absence of
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something the absence of the resistance
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the absence of a psychological identity
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what Ramana refers to his self with a
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small s the idea of who we are that is
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out of line with what we really are at
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her at our core and so that falls away
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now if we’re looking for something
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because we have an expectation of what
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will be delivered then the process might
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actually be delivering this peace of
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mind and yet we run around with an
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expectation that one day a flash of
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lightning will happen and the angels
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will descend from heaven and we’ll find
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ourselves in maybe some other place and
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that expectation if it’s there is going
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to be part of the suffering so if we
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start to look at this from a practical
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point of view and become really clear on
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the different forms of suffering that
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arise and start to become familiar with
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them then we start to become more
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familiar with certain dynamics that are
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the dynamics that need to dissolve and
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it makes sense that these dynamics don’t
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just magically dissolve they tend to
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dissolve when awareness lands on them
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they tend to dissolve when awareness
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lands on them and sees that at the core
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of them there are belief systems
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thoughts essentially thoughts that can
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change in an instant
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once there is a reason for the change to
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happen
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so that’s why we’re sort of pointing and
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what is it that changes in practical
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terms now whenever we find ourselves in
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life dropping out of seeking out of
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contemplating just into a quiet place
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that we can call being then I wouldn’t
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suggest that we should substitute that
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with anything else with any
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contemplating along the lines that I’m
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talking about but to the extent that we
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never contemplate certain dynamics then
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they may remain in place so it’s sort of
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a to me it’s a combination of finding a
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movement that is shifting out of a
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certain type of thinking that is seeking
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anything and at the same time a wisdom
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of the intellect the honed intellect
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that is also interested and willing to
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investigate and the combination of the
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two is particularly powerful
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so if we don’t intellectually understand
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that it’s suffering that is that which
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falls away when there is a knowing of
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oneself what is referred to as a knowing
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of oneself then you know that’s
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suffering with its dynamics can arise
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and we might pay no attention to it it’s
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like wow it’s not about anything in life
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what I need to know is the self that
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transcends all of that and if knowing
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oneself is directly linked with the
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falling away of suffering then that
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mentality is actually creating an
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obstacle because the logic is it’s not
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about that I just need to know myself
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and if the two are interconnected if
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we’re saying it’s not about that then
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we’re really in a sense not know not
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able to know the self so if you really
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know the self you know that they’re
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interconnected that self and peace are
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interconnected and that suffering is
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what fills the space which we could call
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the space of peace and so they’re
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interconnected so hopefully are seeking
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once certain concepts of delivers
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delivered can become very focused so
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I’ll I’ll wrap it I’ll go through it
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quickly when we look at suffering
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is it okay
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so I’ll make the core point because then
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the discussion tends to be relevant and
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hopefully you know we’ve been going for
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10 days now so maybe there are some
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questions the the more the discussion
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becomes about actual people’s lives the
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the more the teaching its elaborated but
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before that we should look at what the
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core point is said when we look at this
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self the self for the smaller the self
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or the smallest is not the person by and
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large it’s not the person with a
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personality and with preferences and
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with a body the self according to this
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teaching the self or the small s is the
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false identity that’s in place but that
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is part of the person that is an aspect
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of the person that life has put in place
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life grows us and grows all parts of us
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including all of our beliefs and our
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attitudes and our preferences and so
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what life is included is an idea about
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our self that oh I am the person but
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specifically I am the person that is
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separate and in control of everything
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that happens through me in control of my
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words and my thoughts and my feelings
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and my actions and not only am i person
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in control of everything that happens
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through me and therefore the other is
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the same but I require life to be
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pleasure pleasure pleasure in order to
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be complete so that essentially is a
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belief system a thought structure that
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has become so ingrained that it appears
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as a actual real entity an entity that
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can collapse if that is seen as to be a
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belief and thought structure and if it’s
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seen that that thought structure is
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actually unfounded it can then just
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dissolve
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and it can feel like or the person has
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dissolved because that’s essentially how
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with what we’ve been living life through
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that lens that identity and so life has
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been impacting that identity for 20 40
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60 80 years and so that’s what we know
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ourself as and if it collapses it can
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feel like the person is no longer there
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until after a certain period of time
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hopefully awareness starts becoming not
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just awareness awareness and the working
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mind starts to become a little more
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critical and say well actually has the
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person dissolved and we’ll see now I
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still live life as a human being a human
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being with consciousness with
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preferences with biological intelligence
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with my shortcomings and my good points
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and I don’t suddenly become a perfect
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person don’t become a saint so what has
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happened is a part of the person what we
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could call a psychological identity
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collapses and then in the absence of
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that identity the attitude to life the
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attitude to what is happening changes
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radically so essentially I’m suggesting
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that when this belief in personal
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doership an attachment to outcome is in
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place there is a psychological entity
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which in some teaching is referred to as
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the person which is why they say the
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person can dissolve and that identity
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forces our movement to happen a movement
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which is what we can call an attitude to
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what happens in the flow of life and
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that attitude arises in the form of
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guilt of blame of pride of worry and
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anxiety of expectation and attachment to
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outcomes and it’s awe it’s basically at
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play all the way through waking life
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because the identity is essentially
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linked to what’s happening what happens
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through me seeing what happens through
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me as my doing
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and heavily linked to outcomes what I
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need is pleasure pleasure pleasure
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pleasure and so throughout the day the
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day is essentially outcomes
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sometimes pleasure and sometimes pain so
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if there is noise out there distracting
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as we could say well that’s the
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circumstance and depending on our
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biological preference
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it’s either pleasurable or painful if
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we’re enjoying the music it’s
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pleasurable if the sun is shining it’s
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pleasurable or painful depending on how
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hot it is and what our specific makeup
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is whether we appreciate the Sun or we
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don’t
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so circumstance is always pleasure or
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pain and that identity that the leaves
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that it requires life to be a certain
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way in order to be complete as
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essentially always judging and craving
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and pushing away craving what it thinks
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will complete it pushing away the
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opposite of what it believes to complete
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it and judging the others for being good
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enough or bad enough
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and so what’s one of the concepts in the
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teaching that can help us move beyond
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this belief structure is the concept
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that life is a predetermined story or a
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creation that we didn’t create but
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exists and we are part of the creation
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the psychological identity once it has
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essentially cut ourself out
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psychologically like that one of these
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kids um pieces of paper we cut out the
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the object
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so we’ve psychologically cut ourself out
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of life which hasn’t actually separated
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us from life but that’s how we’re seeing
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ourselves a separate independent entity
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in complete control of everything we
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think say feel and do and what’s being
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put forward is a suggestion actually
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that’s not what life is that’s not what
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we are life is a creation that came from
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somewhere or at least it’s here and we
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didn’t create it we’re actually part of
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it and that whatever happens in each
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moment we should start attributing to
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life because we’re not separate from
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life so life is essentially moving
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through us we are all instruments
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through which life moves through and if
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we want a more specific description of
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why we’re not separate from life and why
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we’re not actually the doers the concept
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is that the human being is a biological
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instrument designed by life very complex
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and beautiful so I don’t want anyone
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necessarily to hear sort of these
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reductions or these theories that sort
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of reduce everything down and say well
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you know where does love fit in this for
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example it’s just so saying that we’re a
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biological instrument doesn’t reduce the
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complexity of the biological instrument
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doesn’t reduce the range of feelings and
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emotions and thoughts that are available
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as part of that biological instrument
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it’s just describing it in ways that we
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tend not to see ourselves so we are
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essentially a biological instrument that
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has been spawned out of life and we’ve
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grown as part of life not of our doing
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the the growing process very complex and
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life has impacted us and conditioned us
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moment after moment afterwards so in
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each moment where one way a way that
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will never be the same it wasn’t the
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same before and won’t be the same after
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but in each moment we’re only one way
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that the complete structure of our genes
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and up-to-date-conditioning is unique in
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each moment and that essentially is what
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functions in life that’s essentially
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that’s what’s talking now that’s what
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thinks and what feels and what has into
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human relationships or life is into
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human relationship and so what is
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interrelating is essentially life in
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different forms and life itself has
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included the psychological belief
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systems that I am separate from life is
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the irony life essentially puts the
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error in place so we could say it’s a
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story a creation of forgetting oneself
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or mistaking oneself and then life can
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bring about change change such that that
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forgetting that Mis identification falls
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away so life puts the error in place as
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part of the story of life and life takes
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it away if that’s what’s destined so
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according to this concept with a life
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life is destiny that whatever happens
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was essentially put in place at the very
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initiation of the creation a bit like a
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set of dominoes then the first domino is
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hit essentially the last Domino has
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already fallen but it has to unfold in
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time a good analogy is a pool table with
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the red balls in a triangle and the
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white ball and at the point when the
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white ball is struck the red balls have
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essentially already moved and ended up
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in a particular position and at the
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point when the white ball is struck if
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we have a computer that has been set up
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to simulate that because it understands
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all of the impersonal laws in the closed
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system and it’s been designed to
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simulate at 20 times the speed and so as
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soon as it’s hit a sensor let’s say
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since is the angle of the hit and the
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force of the impact and the button is
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pressed simulator and it’s 20 times
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faster so it almost really quick and it
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tells us how the balls will end up and
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we wait five or six seconds and then the
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balls end up exactly the way the
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computer has told us which means it is
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predetermined it just hasn’t quite
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happened yet and so we don’t tend to see
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life this way but when we start looking
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at the suffering which is meant which is
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said to be able to fall away and I speak
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from my own experience and my experience
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is that suffering and daily living
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doesn’t arise so I think frankly it’s
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very important if you’re going to listen
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to a teaching ask yourself what am I
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really looking for in practical terms
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and then ask the person talking is this
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your experience because
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it’s otherwise it’s sort of like going
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to listen to a financial advice talk
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from someone who might be broke um they
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might hit on some points by luck anyhow
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if we look at this – funnily enough you
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like I encourage everyone should do what
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they feel like it’s just life unfolding
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according to the predestined plan so if
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you feel like getting up and leaving
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that’s very good what I find but I find
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interesting sometimes we start off the
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top what are we really looking for in
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life
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and the suggestion is that these talks
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are all about happiness in daily living
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and what we’re really looking for
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whether we realize it or not is
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happiness for the human in daily living
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peace of mind and then after our people
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get up and leave I find it I find it
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humorous but I also understand that we
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are all designed the specific way we can
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only function one way and actually a
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certain body structures body mind organs
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are not designed to resonate with things
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put forward a certain way but I make
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that joke because I want to reiterate
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that the talk is only about happiness
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for the human being in daily living so
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someone might say I’m not looking for
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that I’m looking for truth or oneness or
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self and so there that might actually
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get them up and leave without us really
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recognize maybe they’re not that far
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apart from each other so where was I
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saying that if we are really seeking the
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end of suffering and if we look at the
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suffering and we see guilt blame and
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pride and we say well when I blame the
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other I am really saying that you have
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done something significant that is an
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attack on Who I am so on to basis the
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core of blame is you as a separate doer
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that should have been
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have acted differently that’s the
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thought process when we blame someone
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when we hate someone you as a separate
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doer has done something to me that is an
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attack on what I’m really looking for
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and so we look and we see it’s the
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belief in personal doership undermines
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or um supports blame it supports the
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guilt and shame which is I as a separate
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independent doer have failed in my life
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something that we can wake up with and
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feel this uncomfortableness about what
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has happened in the past instead of
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waking up with a clean slate like Here I
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am you know I haven’t ever failed at
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anything not that there weren’t it’s not
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saying unfortunate results haven’t ever
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happened that’s that’s quite plain and
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simple to see but it’s the attitude
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towards why they happen on what basis
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did they happen that they happen on the
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basis of me as a separate independent
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failure or did they happen as a result
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of life functioning through a biological
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instrument that was designed to function
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that way not in my control so guilt and
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blame and pride pride is the attitude to
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those actions that deliver positive
29:54
outcomes but the same principle me as a
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doer if that’s the basis of our
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unhappiness and what we’re looking for
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is happiness then we really should
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question whether this doer should belief
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is accurate or whether it’s inaccurate
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because if it’s accurate then I think we
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have to conclude well happiness for the
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human being in this life is not
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available because if this doer ship an
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attachment belief is accurate then we it
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makes sense to blame the other for what
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they did that they could have and should
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have done different thing and it makes
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sense to feel guilt to feel guilt and
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shame and it makes sense to feel pride
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for those things that
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happen that a positive but if we can
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come to see life based on an
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investigation a practical investigation
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and an investigation that really doesn’t
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require any super high IQ or
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understanding of science and physics and
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neuro chemistry and genetics northern
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that the explanations are very simple if
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we can come to see life differently then
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in theory the whole psychological
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structure upon which built-in blame and
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shame pride worry an expectation arise
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can collapse if it is an error and if
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it’s seen to be erroneous that’s
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actually the explanation of why
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happiness for the human being is
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available because what has been put in
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place is a misunderstanding an error and
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through a process that misunderstanding
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that error can be seen and when you see
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an error it gets corrected
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and so when we start seeing that I’m not
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the doer I couldn’t have functioned
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differently that life is a predetermined
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story unfolding of which I am part of it
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essentially I am everything that I think
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feel say and do all my actions and life
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my choices my decisions are determined
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by factors that came before and in
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particularly in particular the genes and
32:34
up-to-date-conditioning that we didn’t
32:37
control but we didn’t choose and
32:40
circumstance that we’re never in control
32:43
of because circumstance is very complex
32:45
you can turn the air conditioning off me
32:47
like okay maybe we’ll see
33:01
oh I don’t know I’m sort of it’s up to
33:04
you guys okay so life is circumstance
33:29
and circumstance is always going to be
33:32
pleasurable and painful or pleasurable
33:35
or painful um and not only is this doer
33:40
ship
33:42
aspect a significant part of the
33:45
suffering but the second part of the
33:48
false self identity which is the
33:51
attachment to outcomes and the
33:54
attachment to outcomes has this strange
33:56
notion of life that says well it could
34:00
be the way I wanted to be so it
34:03
essentially is continually coming up
34:06
with an image like a photo of what life
34:11
should look like and somehow in our
34:16
psychology because our psychology really
34:19
doesn’t see things clearly our
34:21
psychology seems to think it’s valid to
34:24
go around with a expectation a photo a
34:30
continuously changing photo of life and
34:32
expect this beast of life which is
34:35
happening and started happening at the
34:38
Big Bang to somehow comply with our idea
34:41
of how it should look
34:43
and that means everyone else complying
34:47
with what we would like and so if the
34:52
psychology aided by the working mind
34:55
that can hear them this description so
34:58
I’m talking to the working mind and the
35:01
psychology I’m talking about is due to
35:04
up-to-date-conditioning that life is
35:07
delivered and we refer to that sort of
35:10
erroneous set of conditioning as the
35:14
thinking mind so the working mind is
35:17
being equipped with new conditioning so
35:20
conditioning is not that evil son that
35:25
it’s being made out to be
35:27
we’ll always be conditioned instruments
35:29
the fact that we are able to talk is due
35:32
to conditioning the fact that we can
35:34
calculate things and know how to take a
35:37
shower and drive a car all conditioning
35:40
and that conditioning has nothing to do
35:42
with our suffering and if we made the
35:45
psychological error of praying to God to
35:47
please take my conditioning away we
35:50
would regret if he listened to our
35:53
prayer because we would essentially
35:56
become not a person and not function we
36:01
would we would cease to function in life
36:03
we wouldn’t there would be nothing that
36:05
would move in life
36:07
so once the psychological conditioning
36:11
dissolves someone would say well if I’m
36:13
not attached to outcomes if I don’t see
36:17
myself as the doer what is going to make
36:21
me move in life and the answer is your
36:23
biological conditioning your preferences
36:27
and a large part of your genetic
36:31
structure remains intact all that’s
36:35
fallen away is a specific set of beliefs
36:39
of how we interpret ourself and the
36:42
other that falls away and so the urge
36:46
for food will arise hunger will arise
36:49
the urge to go the toilet will arise the
36:52
urge to be with
36:55
company will arise and all of that will
36:57
move us towards the fridge in towards
36:59
the toilet or towards the phone and
37:03
there’s an amazing biological
37:06
intelligence in place that’s ready to
37:10
function and is already functioning and
37:14
contrary to our thinking we imagine that
37:18
well if I drop my belief in personal
37:20
dealership not that we drop it but if it
37:22
falls away and my attachment to outcome
37:25
then life is going to crumble and in
37:30
fact this biological intelligence gets
37:32
full rain when the psychological mind
37:36
stops taking charge the psychological
37:42
mind that is convinced that happiness is
37:45
to be found and outcomes is always
37:49
running with a set of shoulds insurance
37:52
how I shouldn’t shouldn’t act in life
37:55
based on trying to it’s essentially it’s
37:59
a very complex strategy of how can I get
38:02
what I think I need in order to be happy
38:05
and the very notion that what I am is
38:10
something incomplete now and needs
38:12
things in order to be happy is an error
38:14
and so then all of that strategy that
38:16
stems from there all of the shoulds and
38:19
students are essentially not very
38:22
intelligent so when that falls away the
38:26
biological intelligence is there and we
38:29
function very differently we don’t
38:31
follow a set of shoulds or shouldn’t
38:33
they fall away we say I have no
38:37
preconception of how I should or
38:39
shouldn’t act in a particular situation
38:40
and the psychology might say well that’s
38:44
gonna be a disaster
38:45
you better set some shoulds and
38:46
shouldn’t some but actually the
38:50
intelligence of biological intelligence
38:51
knows that if there’s fire there to walk
38:56
around it and it knows if you’ve got no
39:00
money in your pocket and you’re starting
39:02
to get hungry it will look at the
39:05
situation and
39:07
accordingly it will ask for some work it
39:11
will beg it will do whatever it
39:13
biologically is designed to do in order
39:16
to function in daily life and in
39:22
practice we find that that biological
39:26
intelligence left to work on its own
39:29
without this thinking mind with its
39:33
shoulds insurance is vastly capable we
39:40
find life becomes much more efficient
39:42
and in dropping into a feeling of what
39:47
to do which is really where the
39:50
biological intelligence resides in the
39:52
body and we find that I start moving
39:56
doing what I feel like doing not just
39:58
feelings because the working mind will
40:02
still contribute calculation it will
40:07
still calculate things and it will
40:09
contribute a calculation and assessment
40:12
on a mental level into the mix and then
40:16
the biological intelligence moves from a
40:20
combination of what we feel like doing
40:23
on a let’s say preference level what our
40:29
assessment tells us is best to do but
40:33
without an attachment to outcome so not
40:35
coming from the same place that says I
40:37
absolutely need love from the other
40:40
that’s full annoy and so then we find
40:44
that we’re moving based on a fairly
40:47
broad instruction from the body of what
40:50
we feel like doing when we’re following
40:55
the shoulds and shouldn’ts is this
40:57
mismatch really between what the broader
41:03
vehicle wants to do and what the shoulds
41:07
and should shouldn’t tell you you have
41:09
to do so dropping the shoulds and
41:12
shouldn’ts actually is a outcome it’s a
41:17
result of seeing that my
41:21
happiness isn’t to be found and pleasure
41:22
pleasure pleasure pleasure and
41:25
understanding that if I keep pursuing
41:27
pleasure pleasure pleasure pleasure I’m
41:30
essentially reinforcing this identity
41:34
that says my happiness is to be found
41:37
and pleasure pleasure pleasure and so
41:38
when we start seeing that these shoulds
41:40
and students that tell me that I should
41:42
say yes when a friend asks me to do
41:45
something because if I say no I might
41:47
offend them we start seeing that that is
41:50
based on this attachment to being loved
41:57
then there’s an automatic matic
42:01
willingness to start challenging these
42:04
shoulds insurance and we find that the
42:10
movement is what’s referred to as a
42:13
flowing through life we find wherein we
42:17
don’t feel like we’re in opposition to
42:19
life
42:34
so they’re the two basic ingrained
42:38
beliefs that I am the doer and I will
42:40
make things happen and that belief
42:43
system often carries over into the
42:45
spiritual seeking so how do I do it how
42:49
do I make this happen say there’s the
42:52
thinking mind we don’t make it happen
42:54
relax there’s nothing for you to do life
42:57
put the error in place life undoes it
43:00
and it may be undoing and by having
43:02
created an impulse it says I’m gonna go
43:05
in listen to such and such a talk and in
43:10
that talk new conditioning is delivered
43:12
that new conditioning becomes part of
43:14
our up-to-date-conditioning and then we
43:17
automatically start functioning or
43:19
continue functioning according to our
43:21
genes and up-to-date-conditioning just
43:23
like we always have and so the question
43:27
that says okay so but I’ve heard this so
43:30
how do I make it happen and say it’s
43:31
already happening the principle is that
43:35
we will always function according to our
43:36
genes and up-to-date-conditioning and
43:40
this is just life is delivering new
43:43
conditioning and it’s bringing about the
43:46
change
43:55
sure
44:02
so one of the additional conditionings
44:05
that driving humanity seems to be the
44:09
not just the one for happiness but also
44:12
let’s say a higher happiness a lasting
44:14
happiness a spiritual search and that’s
44:17
I guess why we all here today so that
44:23
conditioning or that that longing longed
44:28
for happiness drives everything bliss
44:30
longing for ultimate happiness for the
44:33
human being why does that only seem to
44:38
arise in the human being in your opinion
44:41
um because the intellect of the human
44:45
being is complex enough that and ramesh
44:51
used to refer to the complexity of the
44:54
human being as the complexity of the
44:57
intellect as the dubious gift of the
44:59
intellect it’s the only intellect that
45:03
is capable of reflecting on its own
45:06
existence and because the human
45:09
intellect is capable of reflecting on
45:11
its own existence it comes up with
45:12
questions like why is this happening why
45:15
is it happening to me it should be
45:17
happening differently whereas animals
45:18
don’t have that problem so animals still
45:26
experience pleasure and pain but they
45:29
don’t experience the psychological pain
45:31
that the humans have overlaid on to
45:34
circumstance because of the more complex
45:38
intellect that allows us to contemplate
45:41
our own existence so you’re saying that
45:45
the spiritual striving is built into the
45:49
system the system wants us to be free
45:54
and happy i yes it’s a result of the
46:00
suffering being there it’s a response to
46:02
the suffering and if we look at life
46:05
differently a different explanation to
46:07
what we’re sometimes I would say
46:11
if I actually look at the story of life
46:13
it’s a story of evolution of development
46:16
of complexity and humans in the story of
46:20
life have got to a point where they can
46:22
survive in life we no longer have to
46:25
look over our shoulder to see if a tiger
46:28
is about to pounce on us and we now have
46:32
systems in life that allow big
46:35
populations to be fed and so on and so
46:38
forth so that part of the evolution
46:42
which is part of our intellectual
46:44
compare complexity because all of that
46:46
those systems have essentially come out
46:49
of our intellect I have got us to
46:52
survive and so the next step is to
46:55
survive happily and in in a way we can
47:00
see that the unhappiness of the human
47:02
being may be an extension of the
47:05
previous phase of evolution which was
47:07
needing to survive and so that impulse
47:10
for more was appropriate then for if it
47:15
wasn’t there at a certain phase of
47:17
evolution humanity may well have died
47:21
off and then a certain point it served
47:24
its purpose and now it’s creating an
47:27
obstacle to the I guess you say would
47:30
say the next optimal phase of humanity
47:35
so I would say you know examples like
47:39
Buddha and Lao Tzu and the different
47:44
wisdom teachings at a historic they were
47:46
sort of the first signs of the new wave
47:50
of evolution which is are now we are
47:53
surviving let’s start surviving happily
47:56
and more and more lights let’s say going
48:00
on so a light going on is the
48:03
understanding in a human that is part of
48:08
the greater humanity let’s say and as
48:10
more and more lights go on change
48:13
happens brought a broader change I have
48:16
little doubt or at least theoretically
48:20
that in a certain period of time
48:24
happiness for the human being will be
48:26
normal that suffering will be something
48:30
of the past and we’ve been told this by
48:33
mystics who were essentially part by by
48:38
by sharing it were part of the
48:40
evolutionary drive for the next phase
49:01
would you clarify what you mean by
49:04
produced free distance essentially it’s
49:09
a concept so we don’t need to get too
49:13
hung up on it what it is what it’s
49:17
really pointing out is that we’re not in
49:19
control of what happens what has
49:22
happened and what will happen it’s
49:25
essentially saying life is a creation
49:28
and we’re part of the creation and
49:30
essentially like a novel that has been
49:33
written and in the novel there is a
49:37
character that it has that has been
49:40
created by the novel and how the
49:42
character journeys through the novel is
49:47
dictated by the storyline of the novel
49:50
to the character in the novel doesn’t
49:52
say well okay now I’m going to marry
49:55
this person they marry this person
49:57
because the story dictates that they
50:00
will marry that person and so what that
50:06
concept might allow us to do is to see
50:09
our life is a happening moment after
50:13
moment after moment when I look at it in
50:14
a more objective sense I see that I
50:16
really am part of a much bigger movement
50:21
and I’m being swept along with life and
50:25
I’m not separate from it and so even
50:27
what feels like my decision to turn left
50:31
or right is actually heavily determined
50:36
completely determined by everything that
50:38
came before so I’m not denying the fact
50:40
that there is a feeling of free will we
50:45
do have a feeling of free will and
50:46
that’s a gift because if that feeling of
50:48
free will wasn’t there we would actually
50:51
feel like we are slaves or puppets to
50:54
life so this is the paradox is that we
50:58
have the feeling of free will and yet
51:03
when we look at it more closely we see
51:04
actually we are completely determined by
51:09
factors out of our control
51:11
and so it’s really it’s relative to so
51:15
sometimes people will want to get into a
51:17
debate as to whether the end has already
51:22
happened or was predetermined basically
51:25
means what happens was decided before
51:29
that’s one interpretation um we can look
51:33
at predetermined meaning that what
51:34
happens now is determined by factors
51:36
that came before and so we will never
51:40
know what is predetermined we only get
51:43
to see what is predetermined when it
51:45
actualizes when it happened so the words
51:48
coming out of my mouth according to this
51:50
concept were always destined to come out
51:52
of my mouth at this point because your
51:56
question arose and I wasn’t in control
51:59
of your question and I am biologically
52:03
designed a particular way which means
52:05
this response had to follow your
52:07
question and on that same logic your
52:10
question was always destined to happen
52:13
exactly when it happened
52:14
because I said something according to my
52:18
genes and up-to-date-conditioning that
52:19
you weren’t in control of and then that
52:22
was an input into your system that you
52:25
weren’t in control of and the question
52:27
had to correct so when Ramana was
52:28
talking about predetermination to a
52:33
satsang one of the people put up their
52:36
hand and said excuse me but I disagree I
52:39
have the free will to raise my hand and
52:42
to ask this question it’s not
52:44
predetermined I’m free to do it and
52:46
Ramana pointed out the same thing he
52:49
said I’m I was speaking about free will
52:52
and the fact that I was or
52:55
predetermination and the fact that I was
52:57
speaking about predetermination impacted
53:01
with your specific makeup and it was
53:04
therefore predetermined for you to raise
53:06
your hand and make a comment about you
53:10
having free will now to me that
53:13
explanation makes complete sense whether
53:15
it’s acceptable to a particular body
53:18
mind organism is really dictated by
53:22
their specific design
53:24
so not in my control and according to
53:27
this principle not in their control so
53:30
essentially it’s predetermined according
53:33
to their maker whether the notion that
53:38
life is predetermined is acceptable or
53:41
not acceptable yeah so one of the key
53:52
concepts here is life is a happening
53:54
everything is a happening so at some
53:57
point where it’s suggested watch
54:02
speaking happening watch thoughts
54:05
arising as a happening watch the body
54:10
mind moving according to its genes and
54:14
up-to-date-conditioning and the
54:15
circumstances and what are
54:17
happening not your doing so this not
54:20
your doing or we’re not the doers
54:22
doesn’t mean to stop functioning what
54:27
it’s talking about is an attitude that
54:31
can change an attitude to the
54:33
functioning so you’re not the doer
54:37
doesn’t mean to take up a position of
54:39
sitting on the couch for the rest of
54:41
your life it’s saying that you can’t sit
54:44
on the couch for the rest of your life
54:46
unless it’s destined that way unless
54:50
you’re designed that way you will always
54:52
move in life according to the story of
54:55
life and your makeup and the record the
54:58
understanding of non-dual ship is seeing
55:00
that movement as a happening and not
55:04
your doing and why is this important
55:07
only because the suffering that arises
55:10
is based on the belief in personal
55:13
doership so if the suffering is going to
55:15
dissolve it has to include the
55:19
dissolving of the belief in personal
55:21
Ducie if it doesn’t involve the
55:25
dissolving of the belief in personal do
55:26
ship the suffering has to arise and if
55:29
suffering and knowing oneself are
55:32
interconnected then if we’re seeking the
55:36
self and
55:37
and the belief and personal do ship
55:40
remains in place the self can’t be
55:42
realized so if the belief in personal do
55:47
ship dissolves what the realization is
55:51
are what I so we in an instant we can
55:54
have the instant flash the inside
55:58
I simply cannot be the doer and if that
56:02
insight I simply cannot be the doer
56:04
happens it basically means that I am
56:06
always connected to life so the
56:10
realization I am NOT a separate
56:12
independent doer is a realization of my
56:16
continuous unbroken connection to source
56:19
to life which then means that in seeing
56:23
everything that happens through me in
56:26
each moment as a happening because
56:29
source is functioning through this body
56:31
mind organism means I always know my
56:35
connection to source which is part of
56:38
the oneness understanding and so what is
56:43
the self component that Ramana is
56:47
talking about Ramana is focusing on a
56:51
recognition of that which is not the
56:57
body not the thoughts not the emotions
57:00
but rather that which witnesses all of
57:05
that that which is according to the
57:08
concepts the teaching concepts that
57:09
which is ever-present unchanging prior
57:14
to the body and the mind and therefore
57:17
prior to birth and death that which
57:21
essentially is the substratum of life
57:26
and why is that important it’s important
57:32
because pointing to that which is the
57:35
background and saying that’s what you
57:39
are means a shift out of the foreground
57:45
movement from being
57:48
civilly interested with the thinking and
57:52
the moving of the body essentially
57:55
believing that’s what I am
57:58
and if we’re reminded to just rest in
58:03
the self just be interested in self and
58:07
self is described as not all of that and
58:14
the instructions be silent a observed
58:22
life particular way and so that movement
58:28
creates a movement out of the thinking
58:32
mind and hopefully what is what happens
58:37
is there’s a realization of the
58:40
experience of life that which is
58:43
happening right now and in that
58:47
realization we may see that life is
58:53
completely dependent on consciousness
58:56
that the experience of life can’t happen
59:01
if awareness or consciousness is not
59:03
there but we simply can’t have an
59:07
experience without so intrinsic in
59:11
experience and I’m talking about even
59:13
non dual experience non-dual awareness
59:16
shifts essentially that’s life happening
59:20
and if we take the consciousness or
59:25
awareness aspect out what would happen
59:28
is like when you lose consciousness the
59:30
whole thing collapses there’s no
59:32
experience so in order for experience to
59:36
be here a component that we haven’t
59:40
appreciated because we’ve been so
59:43
outwardly focused in life seeking out
59:46
there a component of the human being or
59:51
component of life that is fundamental to
59:54
life awareness or consciousness hasn’t
59:58
been recognized so then the suggestion
60:00
to
60:03
and there’s whole whole teaching
60:05
essentially that conditions us to turn
60:09
inward to be interested in certain
60:12
things that we weren’t interested before
60:15
pointing at those aspects like what you
60:17
are is formless what you are is eternal
60:22
what you are is not time bound or
60:25
physical and so all of those
60:29
conditionings create a movement away
60:34
from the old function and hopefully this
60:39
component of awareness or consciousness
60:42
that is fundamental to life experience
60:45
is registered and what’s it registered
60:50
essentially it’s registered what’s it
60:52
registered by it’s registered by the
60:54
awareness itself awareness becomes aware
60:59
of the Faculty of awareness or the
61:03
aspect of life the the awareness or
61:06
consciousness aspect that is and always
61:09
has been present in life and why is that
61:14
important it’s important because when we
61:17
integrate that realization back into
61:20
being human we find that the human being
61:25
is a conscious human being that that
61:31
consciousness that is realized as the
61:34
self the self that everything is
61:38
dependent on we find that that’s
61:40
actually what is functioning through the
61:42
human being and so then when we say oh
61:48
I’m always connected to source it’s like
61:51
that consciousness that is functioning
61:54
through the human being is the source
61:57
that I’m always connected to so we’ve
62:02
come to know the human being more
62:04
completely because previously we were
62:07
essentially knowing the human being on
62:10
it’s only physical aspect completely
62:13
obsessed with
62:15
circumstance because we knew ourself as
62:17
a physical entity only and as this other
62:21
aspect presents we find that we’re able
62:25
to ground into that beingness itself and
62:30
realize that the self is untouched by
62:34
circumstance and so that becomes part of
62:38
the basis of the undoing of the belief
62:42
that my happiness is to be found in
62:44
outcomes we rest in self and a smile
62:48
comes to our face even in the face of
62:50
unfortunate circumstance so we go to
62:54
pick our laundry up and we find that all
62:57
our favourite clothes have holes in them
62:58
and the thinking mind kicks in and then
63:06
the working mind realizes what’s
63:08
happened the self with a small s
63:11
identity that is attached to outcomes is
63:14
taking this circumstance which is
63:17
painful it’s not ideal and turning it
63:20
into a life-or-death circumstance
63:23
essentially that identity is feeling
63:26
challenged attacked by what has happened
63:30
and in an instant the working mind might
63:33
remind us I am or self and we drop back
63:39
into this place connection with self
63:43
awareness and consciousness functioning
63:45
through the unity and Here I am I’m I’m
63:50
still what I was when I realized it last
63:53
time even though my clothes now all have
63:57
holes in it so last time there was a
64:00
realization of self there was this sense
64:03
that everything is okay I am okay I am
64:08
complete I’ve always been this
64:15
and at that time my clothes were intact
64:17
and then our clothes come back and we
64:20
get lost and then we drop out either ah
64:22
here we are and we go oh this doesn’t
64:25
care that the clothes have holes in can
64:32
I share something else sure I do have
64:36
this experience of seeing through and
64:40
talking through and moving through and
64:43
hearing through and it’s very easy in
64:49
conscious company like right now and I I
64:55
am aware that is also very present
64:57
anywhere even in the street when there
65:00
is lots of noise and you have to cross
65:02
and here is tons of cars and and all of
65:04
that but it’s there is still a movement
65:06
it seems like there is to the moment and
65:09
in and out and I don’t know if there is
65:16
a question here but I must say that I do
65:22
have a preference
65:23
I do prefer like what’s going on right
65:27
now where it’s so easy to flow through
65:30
that in that it’s totally effortless and
65:39
and so I’m wondering if there is a maybe
65:47
something I could switch yeah so that so
65:58
we can call that the flip-flopping cool
66:00
well this is the flip when there is a
66:03
connection to self and then life seems
66:06
like it’s we’re at ease with life even
66:10
when there are challenges and then the
66:15
flop happens and that ease sort of goes
66:18
out the window and we find ourselves
66:20
unable to not resist the resisting just
66:24
happens so that’s the flip and the flop
66:26
and
66:28
that is also part of the predetermined
66:30
story of life it will happen or it
66:36
happens as life changes us and so your
66:43
question if it’s what can I do which it
66:46
wasn’t your question but if we say and
66:47
what can I do to make it happen
66:49
continuously and we say you see that
66:51
that might be the thinking mind the doer
66:54
saying how do I control life and so the
66:57
answer is no there’s nothing for you to
66:59
do life has always been a happening life
67:02
has always been a predetermined story
67:04
and so all of the events along the way
67:07
including our attitude which is
67:10
synonymous with this these different non
67:16
release states they can at times prevent
67:18
and presenters States but ultimately the
67:20
non-resistance doesn’t have to be
67:22
accompanied by a spacious state so even
67:27
the weather resistance arises to a
67:30
circumstance or not is part of the
67:32
overall story of life so when it arises
67:35
the attitude if that’s understood as
67:38
well what to do nothing to do I didn’t
67:41
create the resistance so not my job to
67:45
get rid of it which means no resistance
67:50
to the resistance it’s really a relief
68:10
finished yes that’s exactly and in this
68:14
teaching we say anger in itself isn’t
68:18
suffering isn’t a form of suffering if
68:21
it’s pure anger but because anger which
68:24
we describe at pure anger as a
68:27
biological reaction not a psychological
68:29
reaction meaning it makes biological
68:32
sense depending on your an individual’s
68:35
particular makeup that they’re going to
68:37
get angry in some situations and other
68:41
people
68:41
because of their makeup won’t get angry
68:43
but it’s not to do with understanding
68:45
it’s not to do with knowing oneself this
68:50
a guitar thankfully there are sages in
68:53
life that have not been just Zen
68:57
peaceful because it allows us then to
69:00
see oh well actually um peace of mind
69:04
doesn’t mean not getting angry it means
69:07
being at peace with the anger
69:10
understanding that it’s happening as
69:12
part of life like you said and where the
69:16
distinction needs to happen is that
69:18
because anger when it happens is not
69:21
pleasurable like we’d rather laugh
69:24
instead of get angry from a just from a
69:28
biological point of view we can get to a
69:30
point where we say well I’m not going to
69:32
judge it and so there’s no judgement of
69:36
it but still just on a biological when
69:39
it’s it’s it’s not preferable not that
69:44
it’s not valid but if we just look at
69:46
our preferences we’d say it’s pain
69:48
rather than pleasure and because anger
69:52
is pain and we’re attached to life being
69:55
pleasure pleasure pleasure
69:56
and usually anger arises because someone
70:00
has functioned a certain way that has
70:02
made us biologically angry that when
70:05
anger arises if the belief in do ship
70:08
and attachment is in place it’s very
70:10
rare that anger in its biological form
70:13
will will be what what is felt what will
70:16
normally happen is anger pure anger
70:19
arises and simultaneously there is blame
70:23
and judgment and resistance towards the
70:27
anger blame towards the other for what
70:29
they did and so when we feel that we’d
70:34
say no anger is an uncomfortableness
70:37
with oneself anger is a form of
70:39
suffering in that moment I’m not at
70:41
peace and that’s because in my
70:45
estimation based on my experience that’s
70:47
because we weren’t really feeling the
70:48
pure anger we were feeling pure anger
70:51
plus all of the forms of suffering
70:55
and when those different forms of
70:58
suffering stop arising very much like
71:02
what you described as they can be times
71:04
when there is biological anger it
71:07
happens
71:08
vertically in time and it’s over
71:11
and then there’s no horizontal thinking
71:13
about the anger and when that happens we
71:16
find that actually anger like most pain
71:19
is very manageable in life very
71:22
acceptable and then we come to the
71:27
conclusion that anger just like sadness
71:30
when it’s pure anger or pure sadness is
71:32
a biological reaction and not suffering
71:51
just just for the sake of the recording
71:54
I know you’re right next to me but if we
71:56
can just use the microphone I’ll be
71:58
great
72:03
according to your concept the
72:05
unconditioned it’s non-life or how would
72:10
you describe it the unconditioned yes so
72:17
your because I I wouldn’t call anything
72:19
unconditioned but I guess you’re
72:21
referring to when I was talking about
72:22
the self that is not affected by the
72:26
flow of life so why it’s sometimes
72:34
referred to the unconditioned is in
72:37
order to create a conceptual distinction
72:43
that helps us to bump into it to realize
72:47
it actually I would say it doesn’t arise
72:50
separate to everything else at first in
72:54
the initial awakenings it’s like oh I am
72:57
that this and I’m not all of the content
73:01
that’s one of the initial phases of
73:05
non-dual realization that’s saying but
73:08
actually when you look at it
73:09
very much dualistic and this but not
73:13
that and then an integration happens
73:18
where we see they’re not separate the
73:20
changing and the unchanging are not two
73:24
and so it can be hard for the intellect
73:29
and the intellect will stick with the
73:31
unchanging but what this means if we see
73:34
that the unchanged the changing which is
73:36
life which is always changing and what
73:39
we call the unchanging and not two there
73:43
is no such thing as unchanging or
73:48
changing but definitely we can’t say
73:50
that there is the unchanging or the
73:54
unconditioned well if you said there is
73:56
a condition you have to sit as the
73:58
unconditioned as well isn’t it yes
73:59
that’s right but so then we see the
74:02
difference between our labeling of
74:04
things right where we label something
74:07
such-and-such but even if we drop our
74:09
labels there is still the thing itself
74:12
so if we stop calling a table a table
74:16
then it doesn’t mean that the table
74:19
itself goes it just means that our
74:23
definition of it has fallen away or our
74:25
defining it has fallen away and the
74:27
problem with defining is usually because
74:29
when we define something the way that
74:31
the intellect works until certain shifts
74:34
has happen it defines it and it takes
74:36
thought and definition is something
74:38
absolute so if we take our definition as
74:42
absolute we’ve now defined it in an
74:47
absolute way which is very restrictive
74:49
and so often we’re told don’t define
74:52
anything if you want to see life as it
74:54
really is you have to stop defining
74:56
because our definitions have created
74:58
separation against all of the objects
75:00
that have specific names so if we stop
75:04
this mental defining then it becomes
75:06
easier to see this is just one single
75:09
arising then if we go further into this
75:15
process and we see it’s actually not
75:17
that the problem isn’t defining the
75:19
problem is
75:20
our specific defining and the way that
75:23
our thinking and works which is if I
75:28
think of anything I think of it
75:29
absolutely
75:30
rather than relating to thought as a
75:33
relative function which is what it
75:35
really is if we realize that then we can
75:37
come in and we can keep in mind this is
75:39
actually one single happening but I can
75:41
still call that a camera and a computer
75:43
and a person and now might of my
75:47
labeling my defining is not this has
75:51
doesn’t have the same quality as it used
75:53
to where I believe that my labeling is
75:56
actually what is so I can then label for
76:01
practical purposes and practical
76:04
purposes are very important and actually
76:06
in practical terms this glass does feel
76:11
separate from everything else so we have
76:13
to acknowledge that even though we can
76:15
come to see from a certain perspective
76:17
that there is no separation that
76:20
everything is one on a practical level
76:23
there is separation and the separation
76:28
on a practical level isn’t the problem I
76:33
would say that liberation or
76:35
enlightenment is not the falling away of
76:38
separation on a practical level but
76:40
rather the psychological separation
76:42
especially me separate from life me as a
76:45
doer therefore me as in opposition and
76:48
competition with the other doers so
76:50
that’s the important separation so if we
76:58
drop the labels of conditioned or
77:03
unconditioned doesn’t necessarily change
77:06
something from actually being
77:10
conditioned or not but the so the thing
77:15
is that like if we drop the label as I
77:19
said the label of something that is hot
77:23
or the label of pleasure and pain what
77:29
often happens is we
77:31
think that pleasure and pain then
77:33
doesn’t exist because we think our
77:35
pleasure and pain only existed because I
77:38
labeled it as such
77:42
but you know if I get it a pair of
77:45
pliers and I put your toe in the pliers
77:49
and I press right you don’t have to
77:52
label it as pleasure or pain for that to
77:54
be a biological sensation of pain by not
77:58
labeling it as pain
77:59
what really we’re doing is we’re not
78:00
labeling it as the pain that we have
78:03
always been attached you know to Anna
78:06
verse from so if that labeling of
78:10
attachment falls away we can then start
78:13
labeling pleasure and pain it’s no
78:15
priority so to me this is where we start
78:18
really coming down to what is and we say
78:20
there is pleasure and pain and there’s
78:23
no problem calling something pleasure
78:24
and pain as long as the attachment
78:27
psychology has fallen away but if the
78:30
attachment psychology hasn’t fallen away
78:32
as soon as we label something as
78:34
pleasure or pain we are forced to crave
78:39
it or push it away and so that’s why
78:42
often teachings instead of they say it’s
78:45
too too early let’s say to bring in
78:48
these distinctions so let’s just
78:50
instruct the psychology to stop labeling
78:53
everything because if you don’t label
78:55
something as pleasure of pain if the
78:57
attachment is still in place it can’t
78:59
kick in right because it’s not being
79:02
labeled and so that’s where I say well
79:05
is anything unconditioned if we don’t
79:12
label so this I don’t know if you’ve got
79:15
the point the point or not like if we
79:17
drop the labels it doesn’t change it
79:19
from being something so the pain the
79:22
biological pain is biological pain
79:25
whether we label it or not you just
79:28
label it biological pain which is
79:30
another label I mean we are in the realm
79:32
of labels and therefore I was asking
79:35
from that same standpoint because you
79:38
were using many concepts like that
79:41
conditioned and you said something about
79:45
the unconditioned and if we still agree
79:48
that the we are in the realm of concepts
79:50
where we are actually I’m really
79:54
interested to know how would you
79:56
describe the unconditioned then okay so
79:59
to answer that question I have to go
80:01
against in a way how I see things which
80:06
I don’t see anything as unconditioned
80:08
right so if you’ve asked me how do you
80:11
describe the on condition I don’t know
80:12
what you’re talking about right let’s
80:14
say experientially I know exactly what
80:17
you’re talking about because I have
80:18
direct intimate contact with what we are
80:21
which is what you’re referring to as the
80:23
young condition so I can um describe
80:29
what I know you’re referring to when you
80:31
say the unconditioned now so one of the
80:37
ways I describe it is that is the core
80:39
of the human being now this is different
80:42
to another teaching we’ll say actually
80:45
the human being arises in the
80:49
unconditioned and there’s a reason for
80:54
that because that is a much more
80:57
effective way of the what we’re calling
80:59
the unconditioned being seen a
81:02
realization of it but then the
81:05
realization to me is not the endpoint
81:08
but essentially the beginning of another
81:10
phase of integration and so the
81:13
integration of the realization of what
81:17
we’re referring to the unconditioned is
81:19
an integration of that back into the
81:23
human ie coming to see that the human
81:26
has this aspect to it and the aspect of
81:29
consciousness and when we dive into the
81:33
core of our being in meditation but I
81:38
guess as many of us know
81:40
once we’ve rested there we always have
81:43
contact with the core of humaneness and
81:46
we find that it’s a mystery it doesn’t
81:49
have qualities like age and like gender
81:53
and
81:54
personality and all of those
81:56
characteristics and so if we sort of
81:59
separate it out and say all that is
82:01
separate from the human being and it
82:03
doesn’t have characteristics we can then
82:05
talk about the young condition but once
82:07
we’ve integrated back in and we say well
82:09
it’s not separate from the human being
82:11
it’s an aspect of the human being so to
82:13
know the human being is to know the body
82:15
the thoughts the emotions the
82:18
consciousness the beingness the
82:20
awareness as a single package and to
82:24
know that all of life that we experience
82:27
which is only in this moment is an
82:30
arising in the personal consciousness of
82:33
the person which is once again different
82:38
to when we’re told that everything is
82:39
arising in Brahman self the universal
82:44
self because that’s a useful way for the
82:49
aspect of the human being that was
82:51
unrealized to be realized and so then
82:54
after that the integration as I said
82:56
comes back though no it’s not Brahman
82:59
what I realize is not the self of the
83:01
universe but rather the self which is
83:05
the core of the human being and my
83:09
personal consciousness experience of
83:11
life the life that I’m aware of in this
83:13
moment so you and all the other people
83:15
he’s my personal consciousness
83:18
experience which is an arising inside
83:21
that formless aspect or that what we
83:27
call the unconditioned aspects of the
83:28
human but that’s why I can’t call it
83:30
unconditioned because I’m saying it’s
83:32
part of the human and the human by
83:33
default is a conditioned instrument as
83:38
part of life
83:59
um he started by saying that we wouldn’t
84:05
come to someone about money issues if
84:08
it’s broke so I wanted to ask you about
84:11
your experience because you said the
84:17
tourist experience is like having no
84:20
suffering and I would like to hear about
84:24
it
84:24
because my experience as a human being
84:31
is that sometimes I can be in a in this
84:35
place where you just touched upon like
84:37
feeling of maybe you can say it in words
84:41
and oneness or part of life and not part
84:44
of life life and everything but then I
84:47
come back to what you described as
84:50
working mind and so what is your
84:56
experience of not having suffering right
85:00
so after various insight shifts
85:05
realizations and I have to say we’re
85:08
talking about the realization of self a
85:10
lot and those were part of the journey I
85:15
went on but I am now seeing in
85:18
interacting with people that it doesn’t
85:20
have to be through those certain fairly
85:26
pronounced realizations the important
85:29
changes can happen in much more subtle
85:34
ways and so this expectation sometimes
85:36
of a pronounced realization can in
85:41
itself be a problem
85:43
the realization can happen with lots of
85:45
small insights and it can sometimes be
85:50
that we look back and we go actually if
85:51
we have a benchmark of what is delivered
85:56
in practical terms right we might look
86:01
back and realize our the suffering has
86:03
stopped it stopped I don’t know that it
86:05
stopped six months ago was three months
86:06
ago
86:07
weeks ago it stopped it’s not it’s
86:09
stopped and I don’t exactly know when it
86:12
stopped um and so what I’m trying to
86:15
indicate here is that the progression as
86:20
I know it after various realizations the
86:23
realizations that had me debating very
86:26
strongly with Ramesh that what he was
86:29
saying which was talking about the human
86:31
being was wrong because that’s not what
86:34
the teachings of Ramana and the saga
86:36
data and Course in Miracles and you know
86:41
certain top-down teachings were saying
86:42
which were what brought about those
86:44
shifts in me and so when those shifts
86:47
happened they were assessed so the shift
86:51
was genuine and it was stabilized but
86:54
then it was assessed as meaning
86:56
something as being a proof of something
87:02
that when I really opened up to
87:05
listening to a a set of rationales that
87:09
said look this is what you’re assuming
87:11
like that realization of awareness
87:15
you’re assuming that that is the
87:17
awareness of source or the awareness in
87:21
which the whole universe arises because
87:25
that’s what the teaching that brought
87:28
about the shift was saying and so it’s a
87:32
go to your practical experience also
87:34
you’re assuming that you are awareness
87:36
but you’re not the body things like this
87:39
go to the experience they can come back
87:42
to really practical living which means
87:45
certain concepts have to actually we
87:50
need to be able to jump over certain
87:52
concepts in order to come back here
87:55
because some concepts keep us looking at
87:58
one aspect of the present moment in
88:01
complete obliviousness of what is
88:06
actually also happening in the present
88:09
moment is so because we’ve been
88:10
attention has been turned away from say
88:14
the body and the physical because we’re
88:15
not that is what we were told in order
88:18
to realize the aspect that we
88:20
didn’t realize and so then because it
88:24
was referred to as truth in reality in
88:26
reality in order for us to be interested
88:28
enough in it and to focus fully on it in
88:32
order to realize it then we start maybe
88:37
not assessing the whole experience
88:39
correctly
88:40
so when Ramesh was talking about the
88:46
body and consciousness functioning
88:48
through the body I had real issues with
88:51
it because that’s not what the
88:55
experiential shifts really felt like and
89:01
I thought because it feels a certain way
89:04
that’s how it is and so there was a
89:10
movement as that opening and receptivity
89:13
to what he was pointing at happened and
89:15
I started to see it and I started to see
89:17
wow I was actually still a little
89:20
deluded um making certain claims about
89:26
the experience that are not confirmable
89:30
and the difficult thing is that there
89:34
was a lot of peace at that time anyway
89:38
there wasn’t a lot of suffering then and
89:41
so as this refining happened just a
89:44
deepening of the process happened where
89:47
ultimately more peace set in but on sort
89:53
of levels that are a bit hard to explain
89:56
deepening would probably be the best
89:57
because brief before that I still would
90:00
have said I was at peace and I sort of
90:02
was but the deepenings is but there was
90:05
something that needed to be adjusted and
90:07
changed so your question was can you
90:12
tell me what this piece this unbroken
90:15
peace and daily living is or looks like
90:19
what is it that you’re talking about and
90:21
so I’d say it is about coming back to
90:24
essentially the practical experience
90:27
that doesn’t change from being in
90:30
practice and experience of a world
90:33
and of a person in a world end of all of
90:43
the feedback saying I am you know the
90:45
consciousness is linked to this body now
90:48
if someone else gets hit I don’t feel it
90:50
if I get hit there is a part of the
90:52
experience includes feedback from that
90:55
so when we come back here we start
90:57
having to draw certain conclusions about
91:03
what it is we really are and so Ramesh
91:07
would say you know when we have these
91:08
realizations we don’t awaken from the
91:11
dream if if it’s a dream
91:13
we don’t awaken from this life we the
91:17
life still carries on time
91:21
still appears as part of the
91:25
manifestation causality is still very
91:29
much how the manifestation unfolds so a
91:32
liberated person still has to turn the
91:35
kettle on in order to get water and
91:37
still follows laws of causality and if
91:41
someone asks them a question you know
91:42
where will you be in a week if they have
91:44
a Djinn they say well who knows what’s
91:47
going to happen a week but likelihood is
91:49
they don’t say I don’t know what are you
91:51
talking about a week I don’t understand
91:52
the question yeah so we find that the
91:57
story of causality time and space
92:00
pleasure and pain still carries on and
92:06
we have to acknowledge that this is a
92:09
story of living as this character now
92:12
I’m not talking about living as this
92:14
character with the delusion that was
92:16
there initially where there were certain
92:20
relations to life experiences absolute
92:24
so we dropped the absoluteness but then
92:27
we say when I’ve dropped the
92:28
absoluteness in practice it still keeps
92:31
appearing a certain way not my doing but
92:34
obviously that’s this creation is a
92:36
creation of a body in a world and a
92:40
consciousness functioning through this
92:42
body and linked to this body and the
92:44
body is sort of the vehicle where
92:46
gets all the feedback so the peace of
92:50
mind is peace of mind for the human
92:53
being in daily living and peace of mind
92:56
simply means the absence of suffering
92:58
and suffering is guilt blind pride worry
93:00
and expectations which means that that
93:04
movement of expecting life to be a
93:07
particular way has fallen away no I
93:10
would like life to be a certain way but
93:12
I know that the fact that I would like
93:14
it to be that way doesn’t make me in
93:17
control of the outcome um I understand
93:20
that as part of the nature of life it’s
93:23
sometimes pleasure and sometimes pain
93:25
and my destiny is what it will be and
93:27
people are going to deliver pain to me
93:30
and it’s not personal and so I will
93:35
still do what I can to fix the situation
93:39
but I know that the outcome not in my
93:42
control and I understand that that
93:43
situation that now needs fixing makes
93:46
complete sense in life even if it’s
93:48
unfortunate so what we find is that the
93:52
human being gets to go through life with
93:54
essentially a much clearer understanding
93:57
of the nature of life meaning in
94:00
practical terms sometimes pleasure and
94:03
sometimes pain circumstance with a
94:06
theoretical understanding that really
94:08
when death comes all of this ceases and
94:14
so who cares essentially nothing
94:17
happened and to Romana’s one of the
94:20
Romanovs quotes is there is not even
94:22
from the ultimate point nothing happened
94:25
like not even creation and dissolution
94:27
because if we see it like at the end
94:32
there is no one to remember anything and
94:36
so in practice nothing happened then we
94:39
can come to see that actually that can
94:41
happen moment after moment if there’s no
94:42
attachment to the past it’s like what’s
94:46
the relevance of it other than what it
94:49
serves as part of memory in order for
94:51
practical functioning so we understand
94:55
both the deep theoretical understanding
94:58
that either without my consciousness
95:01
life doesn’t exist and therefore what
95:07
happened before is not what’s happening
95:09
now so all there is is the present
95:12
moment and even when the present moment
95:13
gets switched off then there’s nothing
95:16
but knowing all of that we still find
95:19
that in the moment there is life which
95:21
is causality in others who we have to
95:24
hold both together that really none of
95:29
this exists and in practice of course it
95:33
exists and so the peace of mind is the
95:36
living as the human being as if it’s
95:40
real as if I’m the doer knowing
95:43
ultimately I’m not the doer and even
95:47
ultimately before that nothing ever
95:49
happened so you you have no power in two
95:55
examples like if your girlfriend is
95:57
going with another man you’re not envy
96:00
you’re not having any suffering the
96:03
other question if you have no worries if
96:07
I have no worries no worries because you
96:09
you said end of suffer suffering one of
96:12
them was worries you said yes an anxiety
96:15
worry and anxiety so have you diminished
96:20
any anxiety or where that happens that’s
96:24
part of the predestined so did it happen
96:26
to you that and so even though I put
96:30
those things in the fact is I’m I had a
96:32
fairly fortunate life but not the devoid
96:34
of the ordinary things you know getting
96:37
to a hotel and finding that the hotel
96:39
room you booked is not available you
96:41
know all of these things missing an
96:42
aeroplane being charged way too much
96:45
having money stolen the full range
96:47
people that you love dying all of that
96:49
still going to happen but I guess I’m
96:52
not in a slave labor camp which would be
96:54
a much more intense form of unfortunate
96:57
painful life experience but I throw
97:02
those things in to say that this is
97:06
about an attitude shift
97:09
in an identity of a certain identity
97:13
that we could say is a particular
97:14
attitude the attitude of do ship and
97:17
attachment to outcome there falls away
97:19
having said that I didn’t ever have
97:22
shame or anxiety as aspects of my life
97:27
as I was growing up so those aspects
97:31
didn’t fall away they weren’t there in
97:32
the first place but there were other
97:35
forms not intense but they were there
97:37
before the seeking happened and that’s
97:39
through the seeking in the first it
97:42
wasn’t necessarily very long they were
97:46
seen and it was a gradual process where
97:50
they as they were seen more and more and
97:52
the behaviors no longer sort of
97:56
behaviors that were linked to them
97:58
started getting cut off which in effect
98:01
reduced the whole dynamic that at some
98:05
point the psychological resistance
98:08
stopped but let’s be very clear that the
98:11
pleasure and pain aspect still exists so
98:14
if a partner of mine dies or they decide
98:18
that they want to be with someone else
98:19
there will be an aspect of pain
98:23
biological pain but the hatred towards
98:28
them the resistance towards the
98:29
situation being like that the guilt or
98:32
shame thinking that this happened
98:34
because I’m not I wasn’t quite up to
98:37
scratch there could be an understanding
98:38
she might say you know I’ve been telling
98:40
you for five years that I want to do
98:43
more things in life and travel and
98:44
whatever and maybe I said but that’s
98:46
just not what I like I don’t I don’t do
98:48
it and so then at some point she said I
98:50
miss submit someone we click and they
98:52
like travel and I’m in love with them
98:54
and them and so it could be uh wow
98:56
that’s you know it’s painful um but then
99:01
the resistor and I might see she might
99:03
say you know the fact is that I want to
99:05
travel and you didn’t want to travel and
99:07
I might be able to acknowledge that that
99:11
was because yes I don’t have the urge to
99:14
travel what saying but not feel shame
99:17
about that not say well I should
99:19
have this urge to travel that’s if only
99:23
I was like that then this wouldn’t have
99:24
happened
99:25
and so the jealousy of the other person
99:28
isn’t there it’s actually it would be I
99:31
as as a friend
99:34
to the partner because I don’t see her
99:35
as someone who has attacked me I said I
99:39
wish you will and and the new partner
99:43
you know I wish the relationship well
99:46
and in practical terms you know one of
99:49
the good examples is I had tenants I
99:51
have used it a few tenants in my
99:53
property and they stopped paying the
99:55
rent and then they wouldn’t leave and
99:57
the rent accumulated it was you know
100:01
five save thousands of dollars that’s
100:03
saying that they didn’t pay and then
100:06
when I got back they had left the house
100:08
in a complete mess and whatever and the
100:12
there’s there’s no to me the feeling is
100:15
there’s no hatred towards them I see
100:17
that as my destiny for that to have
100:20
happened their destiny to be the
100:21
instrument through which it happens I’ve
100:24
still lodged a court claim right because
100:27
without hating them I say well in this
100:29
moment what I can do to try and rectify
100:32
the situation is put the thing the fact
100:34
is that I don’t have a forwarding
100:36
address so I know that I’ve done what I
100:38
can but the outcomes not in my control
100:40
and if I if they walked into satsang
100:42
they’re welcome yeah it’s like I might
100:45
not actually invite them out for dinner
100:49
right but having said that if I did meet
100:52
them in the street I don’t really know
100:54
that I that I wouldn’t I really don’t
100:58
have a hatred to towards them no not at
101:01
all and knowing that this is just pain
101:04
that has been delivered of different
101:06
sources it’s not even you know when we
101:09
say pain it’s sort of in a way it’s a
101:10
theoretical thing you know if you have a
101:13
hundred dollars in your wallet and
101:15
you’ve got 15,000 in the bank or a
101:18
million in the bank
101:19
and you lose the hundred dollars
101:22
theoretically it’s pain right I prefer
101:25
not you you go how can losing a hundred
101:28
dollars be pleasure let’s say but in
101:33
practice it might be insignificant pain
101:36
if that’s your only hundred dollars and
101:39
you need to feed yourself it will be
101:42
more significant pain I know I had
101:44
exactly this experience yeah with a
101:46
half-million I lost and I know it yeah
101:49
well yeah there you go and so the
101:53
question is it is just pain now our
101:56
relationship to it is what makes it
102:00
uncomfortable or not
102:16
chill them
102:27
thrown over my life the doers ship and I
102:30
think the idea of helping someone it’s
102:33
it’s an illusion I can see it’s an
102:35
illusion and yet it’s so so strong it
102:38
seems to be a driving mechanism in my
102:40
life the illusion that I can help
102:42
someone and of course there’s a
102:44
relationship because the other person
102:45
may may ask for that help and all sorts
102:49
of problems can arise as well because
102:51
you can fall you know into unhealthy
102:54
relationships as a result of that
102:57
illusion yet so the illusion is that
103:01
we’re in control of the outcomes or even
103:04
in control of how we function because
103:06
the fact is that someone can ask for
103:08
help you can function and at the end of
103:12
it they say that was really helpful so
103:14
there is the potential for actions to be
103:17
helpful to the others what the illusion
103:20
is is where we think that one the
103:23
outcome is important to our beingness
103:28
right and when that’s the case which is
103:32
part of attachment to outcome and it’s
103:35
it’s usually a belief that what I
103:38
require in order to be complete is love
103:40
so the deepest attachment to outcome is
103:43
the attachment to love from the other
103:44
because we believe that until we have
103:48
that we won’t be complete it’s linked to
103:52
the fact that the deepest form of
103:54
suffering is shame shame means are not
103:56
good enough and so we’re continually
103:58
seeking love from the other to prove to
104:01
ourselves well I must be good enough if
104:02
I can get love from the other so it’s a
104:05
fairly any way so the biggest illusion
104:10
is that we’re in control of the type of
104:12
help that we give which really it means
104:15
that we will be asked which is an input
104:17
and then we will function according to
104:20
our genes and up-to-date-conditioning
104:20
and even if we function according to
104:23
genes and up-to-date-conditioning which
104:27
want to give great hope and maybe even
104:32
do give great help we’re not in control
104:34
of the outcome because the person might
104:36
have expected so much more let’s say and
104:38
then is not happy
104:40
with the help we delivered which might
104:42
have actually been very good help so in
104:45
in all of life we see that life happens
104:49
sometimes positive outcomes sometimes
104:51
negative outcomes and what’s important
104:54
to see is that how it happens through me
104:56
not in my control and the outcome not in
105:02
my control
105:03
sometimes it’s confused and if the other
105:05
person is really grateful and it appears
105:08
that you’ve helped them a lot but it can
105:11
you know reinforce the illusion that I
105:14
helped that person when I didn’t
105:15
especially from this I’m so grateful I
105:18
don’t know what I would have done
105:19
without you I yeah see things in a
105:20
different light now it’s just had a big
105:22
impact on me but I know it’s an illusion
105:24
okay so that comes down to the pride
105:27
aspect and pride is basically seeing
105:31
those actions that happen through us
105:32
that are positive and then from the same
105:36
place of personal doer ship claiming
105:38
ownership over then saying oh um
105:41
look what I’ve achieved and so if
105:43
someone says you’ve done such a great
105:45
job at first it might just be resetting
105:50
the doer ship grabs hold of it and say
105:52
oh oh I’m I’m pretty good right and now
105:57
that doesn’t mean that when the doer
105:59
ship falls away that we won’t
106:01
acknowledge we have to still acknowledge
106:04
that society is always going to hold us
106:07
responsible even if we’re not the doers
106:09
for those actions that happen through us
106:11
that deliver pleasure and those that
106:13
deliver pain and it will reward us for
106:15
those actions that are pleasurable and
106:17
it will punish us for those actions that
106:19
are painful and so an integrated
106:22
perspective is we completely understand
106:24
I’m not the doer but that doesn’t
106:27
absolve us of responsibility to society
106:30
it does absolve us of responsibility to
106:32
ourself and observe responsibility to
106:35
God when we realize this will say I’m
106:37
never going to be held accountable by
106:40
God God has formed me God has turned
106:43
into all of life including me and
106:46
designed me to be exactly the way I am
106:48
so God is never going to say to you you
106:50
did a bad job God’s gonna say hey
106:52
high-five you did exactly
106:53
you did perfectly in life right but
106:57
there isn’t a god that’s going to tell
106:58
you that but if we if we no longer feel
107:06
a responsibility to a God on the basis
107:10
of being good enough about enough we’re
107:14
then absolved from that responsibility
107:15
but we’re not absolved from being held
107:18
accountable by society that’s just a
107:21
fact of life so you can’t go around
107:22
saying to the judge well I’m not the
107:25
doer I was forced to steal the car right
107:28
he might actually understand the
107:29
principle and he’d say I understand I’m
107:31
not the doer either five years in prison
107:35
it’s just the consequence of things so
107:37
this notion I’m not the doer doesn’t
107:39
suddenly mean that you can you use it as
107:42
a means to be irresponsible and yet if
107:45
you find yourself being irresponsible
107:47
then you might know what that was a
107:48
result of my genes and up to date but
107:50
it’s not some saving grace that saves
107:52
you from consequences so for me that
107:55
integration is it’s sort of I’m it’s
107:58
happening through me and I’m not the
108:01
doer and so someone says I mean I get a
108:03
lot of messages that say they’re great
108:05
message to read like wow these you know
108:08
being listened and it’s changed my life
108:09
I feel good about the fact that life is
108:13
functioning through me in that way and
108:16
so if someone says thank you I said wow
108:19
you’re really welcome it’s my pleasure
108:21
knowing that I couldn’t have functioned
108:24
differently I don’t need to go around
108:26
saying you know explaining everything
108:28
that we understand deeply because it’s
108:32
not about practical daily living it’s
108:34
like if someone thanks you you can
108:37
accept the thanks and actually it feels
108:40
good on a biological level but the
108:43
important part is that it doesn’t turn
108:45
into pride somebody thanks you and said
108:54
you you’ve really saved me but the point
108:56
is they saved themselves it was just
108:59
this strange play which took place where
109:02
they needed to see themselves in the
109:03
mirror of me
109:05
yeah well we could say life saved them
109:08
and life did it by the particular
109:13
interaction and so then I know that it’s
109:16
not personal and it’s not you know there
109:20
was no one really I’m not capable of
109:23
saving anyone but we are all capable of
109:26
we’re only capable of functioning the
109:28
way we’re distant to function and so
109:31
then if we see positive outcomes we say
109:33
what I’m grateful for life – putting me
109:35
in a circumstance that is pleasurable
109:41
from time to time