01-20-2019 Roger Castillo – why it feels like the person dissolves

  • Holger 

 

Transcript

00:58
so a lot of what I speak of in the talks
01:05
is very applicable to a process that is
01:09
very important which is the process
01:11
after awakening it so happens that it
01:16
can also be very significant to the
01:19
process before awakening and there are a
01:26
lot of teachings that speak specifically
01:28
about awakening in order to bring about
01:31
awakenings and in some cases it’s better
01:39
not to explain a lot of things that is a
01:43
very effective teaching is to explain
01:46
very little because the way that our
01:49
thinking has developed is such that
01:52
we’re so interested with so many details
01:53
and the thinking movement that is
01:58
interested in all of these things is
02:00
interested in order to get outcomes and
02:02
is interested with belief that the
02:07
thinking itself can make outcomes happen
02:10
so often when we get information and
02:13
we’re interested about that information
02:15
it’s an interest from a with an infusion
02:20
in it that actually is part of the
02:22
problem it’s an infusion in the thinking
02:26
that’s trying to get somewhere and
02:28
trying to get somewhere by its own
02:30
efforts and so often teachings don’t
02:35
give you more information they
02:39
effectively are aiming at undermining
02:45
the thinking by effectively pointing it
02:48
out as the problem and so often when a
02:51
question is asked the answer is an
02:56
answer that sort of says actually the
02:58
question is not valid because it’s
03:03
understood when it’s heard the question
03:06
is coming from this
03:08
attitude that is the problem and so
03:12
answering the question essentially
03:13
validates the question validates the
03:17
motivation of the question and then the
03:20
thinking carries on essentially what we
03:26
call and is teaching the belief in
03:28
personal doership and attachment to
03:29
outcomes gets fed and gets stronger by
03:34
receiving more information but once
03:41
certain changes have happened then
03:47
information can be received in a
03:50
different way and hopefully if the old
03:54
habit of taking the information and
03:57
turning it into an objective turning it
03:59
into somewhere to get because of our own
04:02
personal effort if that kicks in it gets
04:05
recognized because it’s got a particular
04:08
feeling to it that type of thinking has
04:11
a feeling that makes us feel
04:14
uncomfortable with ourself it is
04:15
uncomfortableness because essentially
04:17
it’s saying what’s here right now isn’t
04:19
good enough so how do I fix it how do I
04:21
change it into something that is good
04:24
enough and actually what’s right here
04:27
right now is really very fine if we can
04:33
drop into what is here at the core of
04:38
our being thank you and it’s the
04:47
thinking that sort of prevents us from
04:50
dropping into that that essence that we
04:55
are and so when they’re thinking kicks
04:59
in it feels uncomfortable so hopefully
05:03
we’ve started at a certain point to be
05:06
able to have dropped in to our essence
05:09
and appreciated what is available now
05:15
when certain things change
05:19
and with that experience that is not
05:23
something that I’m not talking about it
05:25
coming and staying because if it comes
05:26
and stays then there’s no need to say
05:28
anything because as far as I’m concerned
05:31
that’s what we’re really looking for the
05:33
peace of our own being meaning a
05:37
connection to what we really are which
05:39
allows us to continue to live life and
05:41
we remain connected to the core of our
05:44
being and a certain type of thinking is
05:48
then known to be redundant and it stops
05:50
I’m talking about when the piece is
05:53
experienced intermittently so we have an
05:57
experience of what it’s like for there
05:58
to be quietness or silence of the
06:01
thinking mind so an ending temporarily
06:05
of the thinking mind and so that’s
06:06
silence where we just being doesn’t mean
06:13
we’re just having to sit down we can be
06:14
walking through the street and there
06:17
really isn’t a problem we don’t feel
06:20
like this somewhere else we need to be
06:22
we don’t feel like there’s someone else
06:27
that we need to be we don’t have a
06:31
commentary running about insufficiencies
06:34
you don’t have a commentary running
06:36
about how good we are
06:38
we just are and there’s a silence of the
06:44
thinking mind and then when the thinking
06:50
mind comes back in it becomes very
06:53
obvious to us so here it is again
06:56
because it has a very particular flavor
07:00
and to the extent that we become
07:06
familiar with that flavor and the word
07:08
that I think is very appropriate for
07:11
that is uncomfortableness and when we
07:14
look at the thinking and the feeling
07:17
that comes with it an uncomfortableness
07:18
with oneself or an uncomfortableness
07:20
with the honor and that’s what can come
07:24
to an end that’s what’s available for
07:28
the human being to be a human being not
07:31
transcendent from the
07:33
body being a human being connected to a
07:37
part of our human estat you could say is
07:41
transcendent but part of our humanist we
07:44
could say is timeless in the experience
07:48
of it it doesn’t necessarily mean that
07:51
it is timeless
07:53
doesn’t mean that it’s eternal and will
07:55
always exist but it means that when we
07:58
experience that part of ourself because
08:01
certain thinking is absent we’ll realize
08:05
all this notion of past and future is
08:08
thought based and so we can find a part
08:10
of ourself that is free of all of that
08:13
and it’s very relieving it’s a great
08:15
relief because we can start to see that
08:19
this thinking imposes a great pressure
08:23
on us in a sense to control life to
08:25
fight to struggle to keep things in
08:29
order it’s actually a fiction the
08:32
thinking thinks we have to do all of
08:33
this the thinking says you know if you
08:36
don’t struggle you’re not you won’t get
08:38
anywhere if you don’t seek you won’t
08:40
find it doesn’t realize that life looks
08:44
after itself and that the core of our
08:46
being is already complete and is self
08:51
content and so we don’t really need to
08:53
find anything we’re looking for
08:55
something when that self contentment is
08:57
covered over so this is really important
09:03
for us to experience this silence for
09:08
our self it allows us to understand what
09:11
the absence of silence is it allows us
09:14
to see what it is that comes in and
09:17
disturbs the silence if this doesn’t
09:23
happen what is likely and what happens
09:28
is we become really used to the
09:31
uncomfortableness we become used to the
09:34
thinking of the thinking life is always
09:37
there as a background
09:41
and when you’re used to it and we’re
09:46
told about something like liberation and
09:51
we’re not really sure what it is we’re
09:53
just running with the descriptions and
09:58
there hasn’t been a dropping in the
10:00
incessant thinking then we are forced to
10:03
imagine what silence is and we come up
10:07
with a concept of what this silence that
10:09
we might one day have is and so that’s
10:20
the great benefit of the point in the
10:24
process when thinking is witnessed so
10:31
the thinking I’m talking about it gets
10:33
seen it’s very beneficial when it ceases
10:38
for a little bit and is this and then if
10:43
it comes back it might be recognize the
10:45
contrast between the two states allow
10:48
for a recognition and understanding that
10:51
there is this incessant noise that not
10:59
only in theory can stop but we see it in
11:01
practice it can stop
12:08
so if we get given descriptions and
12:12
information which in this teaching is
12:16
what is given there are a lot there is a
12:19
lot of information given and if the
12:22
thinking mind grabs hold of that
12:24
information and thinks a lot because it
12:32
wants to understand and reap the rewards
12:35
of understanding what is being pointed
12:37
out what’s being described and maybe
12:41
have a stopping of the thinking for like
12:47
more than it is more than its stopping
12:49
let’s say then there can be a
12:52
recognition or the thinking about the
12:54
concepts in itself is is becoming a load
12:59
of suffering a load of uncomfortableness
13:01
and if it’s recognized in that moment we
13:05
realized i’ve been thinking so much
13:07
about this and it’s uncomfortable then a
13:11
stop can happen it’s like stop
13:53
so that’s why the descriptions are put
13:58
forward focusing on the practical aspect
14:01
and it’s the question is asked and it’s
14:06
suggested that we ask this question for
14:08
ourselves it makes sense it’s a good
14:11
question to ask I’ll tell you what it is
14:12
in a second if we’ve been seeking for
14:16
five years or 20 years or 50 years isn’t
14:21
it a good question to ask him what am I
14:23
really seeking in practical terms so
14:27
yesterday some of you were here and
14:29
there was a discussion with a gentleman
14:30
who didn’t really agree when I said that
14:37
that the self the beingness the
14:42
consciousness when we rest into it for
14:46
our self doesn’t tell us a lot of things
14:49
that the teachings have told us for
14:54
example it doesn’t tell us that it will
14:58
it was there before I was born
15:02
doesn’t tell us that it will be there
15:06
after death what it tells us when we
15:11
rest in it is I am I exist
15:14
and there is the Faculty of awareness so
15:17
not only I exist here now with all of
15:20
this just what’s here now and we can
15:24
drop into the timeless aspect of it when
15:29
we say timeless it there’s an aspect of
15:33
the human being you might notice I keep
15:34
calling saying aspects of the human
15:36
being with this to me everything that is
15:39
experienced as life in life is his
15:41
experience from the perspective of the
15:42
human being and there’s really no
15:45
problem with that except when the
15:48
functioning of the human being includes
15:51
a whole lot of this disturbing thinking
15:55
and really when that falls away there is
15:59
the peace and there’s no problem with
16:02
acknowledging that we are human
16:05
and at any moment we can drop into a
16:08
meditation where the aspects of our
16:12
humanists certain aspects dissolve into
16:15
the experience or fall away like the
16:17
sense of a body can fall away the sense
16:20
of time can fall away and so there’s the
16:26
timeless aspect of diving into our core
16:30
it reveals itself but it doesn’t mean
16:34
that we no longer we no longer exist in
16:37
that moment it just means that the
16:39
experience that’s there doesn’t have
16:42
certain flavors to it and then come out
16:50
of meditation and certain flavors get
16:51
added back in all the visual and sounds
16:54
and sense of being the body come back in
16:56
and while going through life we can
16:59
still remain connected to this core this
17:01
timelessness so I’d say it’s an aspect
17:05
of the human being and so the discussion
17:13
that ensued yes there was about does the
17:16
consciousness that is at our core the
17:20
self is it eternal does it have a
17:23
beginning and an end does it exist
17:26
before we were born and after we were
17:28
born and I acknowledge that that is a
17:32
very useful teaching is very useful at
17:34
bringing attention to that which is
17:37
ever-present now by actually describing
17:42
as ever-present
17:43
throughout time or eternal but what if
17:49
that’s just technique to bring attention
17:52
to something that is always here now and
17:55
then when we bump into it when we ground
17:59
into it we understand we we know we
18:02
experience we are the timeless aspect of
18:05
it but when we’re really honest we say
18:07
well does it does it tell me that it was
18:10
here before and my answered no it
18:13
doesn’t but it’s not really important
18:16
but then the discussion was a discussion
18:19
about whether it does aware it whether
18:21
it doesn’t then becomes very
18:22
philosophical in a sense so
18:26
unfortunately the gentleman walked in
18:30
two-thirds of the way through and so
18:32
didn’t hear the first part that says
18:34
this teaching is about something very
18:36
specific this teaching is about
18:39
happiness for the human being in daily
18:42
living and it describes this happiness
18:50
in practical terms this happiness for
18:53
the human being is available in the form
18:56
of peace of mind peace of mind
19:00
regardless of the circumstance you find
19:02
yourself in and this peace of mind is
19:05
simply the absence of suffering and so
19:10
it keeps it very practical and then we
19:15
don’t need to get lost in philosophical
19:17
discussions if we know what is really
19:21
available what will I have after
19:24
liberation that I didn’t have before and
19:27
so rather than an answer that says you
19:30
will know the self after liberation and
19:34
you’ll realize that before liberation
19:38
the self was not known what we talked
19:42
about is actually why is it of any
19:46
benefit to know the self what does it
19:49
deliver in practical terms and the
19:54
suggestion is that when that is known
19:57
and in the face of that certain thinking
20:01
that used to happen before which was
20:04
based on certain presuppositions no
20:07
longer makes sense then there is peace
20:10
of mind
20:11
so the litmus test then becomes peace of
20:14
mind the end of suffering
20:18
if someone doesn’t acknowledge that the
20:23
real reason for coming in contact with
20:27
the self which is the awakening part
20:28
that’s saying coming to know what we are
20:32
at our core
20:33
if someone doesn’t acknowledge that
20:35
there’s a practical benefit of that and
20:37
that the practical benefit is more than
20:40
for example just knowing truth or
20:43
whatever explanation someone is running
20:47
with if if someone doesn’t acknowledge
20:50
that knowing the self and peace of mind
20:54
are interconnected that one comes from
20:59
the other then we can’t use the litmus
21:04
test of peace of mind as proof in a
21:09
sense of knowing the self because
21:12
someone’s not acknowledging the
21:13
connection but if you do acknowledge the
21:16
connection then we can say well if peace
21:19
of mind is there on a continuous
21:22
unbroken basis the self is known just
21:27
like if the self is known there will be
21:30
continuous unbroken peace of mind and
21:36
frankly I think that given that when we
21:44
look at our life situation practically
21:48
and we see what the problem really is
21:51
that the problem is the arising of
21:54
suffering and then we start experiencing
21:58
what it’s like when the suffering
22:00
subsides that we might even let go of
22:06
the importance of self and just actually
22:11
I’m just looking for peace of mind I’m
22:14
just looking for the end of suffering
22:17
and if we take it from that angle if the
22:22
two are connected if you find what peace
22:27
of mind in your life it means that the
22:29
self
22:30
is coming into view and when we take the
22:37
different teachings and put them
22:38
together and if they can seem to be
22:41
complementing each other then they
22:42
become a really powerful tool
22:56
[Music] 23:03
um just a quick question scheme would it
23:08
be like trying to you know
23:31
you know our basic need of let’s say
23:36
shelter right we need a clean come can
23:46
you go yeah if you come here and then
23:59
I’ll retranslate the question so for the
24:48
sake of the recording you’re saying that
24:50
so I’ll just say into the microphone
24:55
that we need the basics in life we need
25:00
shelter we need food we need cleanliness
25:03
and and safety and once we have the
25:06
basics then the needing of the bigger
25:10
house and the fancier car is part of the
25:13
thinking mind wanting more and more and
25:15
more and actually you are safe with the
25:20
basics and so obsessively wanting more
25:23
more more becomes a certain movement of
25:25
mind and that in the seeking when we
25:30
grab onto an idea about what is
25:33
available and if that idea is really
25:36
quite
25:38
extreme and beneficial in terms of what
25:41
it will deliver us like bless continuous
25:47
bliss or special powers or whatever we
25:51
come up with as an expectation in our
25:54
mind when we are reading about it and
25:56
trying to understand it it is very much
26:00
following the same principle so we can
26:02
have an expectation of what is available
26:07
that actually isn’t what’s available and
26:09
not what neat and what’s needed and so
26:12
to bring it back and really acknowledge
26:16
actually what am I really looking for is
26:19
really important and so Ramesh used to
26:24
say these talks are not really for those
26:27
people below the poverty line because
26:30
when you’re below the poverty line where
26:33
you have to put all of your effort into
26:35
finding enough money to feed yourself
26:39
and your family for that day this
26:43
question of happiness is redundant it’s
26:48
like I’ll come to that question of
26:49
happiness once I’ve got the food for
26:51
myself and my family because we need
26:54
that and so this is sort of an evolution
26:57
of humaneness in that we’re now at least
27:05
some of us a lot of us everyone in this
27:09
room is above the poverty line so
27:11
humanity has evolved to a place where
27:16
we’re no longer needing to fight the
27:19
elements and fight nature to survive on
27:22
a primal level which at some point in
27:25
time we were prior to all of the
27:29
industrial development and technological
27:32
development and even much earlier when
27:38
our intellect wasn’t even as developed
27:41
we had to survive in the jungle and
27:45
forest and make sure we weren’t eaten by
27:47
Tigers
27:48
and now humanity has evolved to a level
27:53
where fortunately we don’t have to worry
27:55
about those issues we’re more or less a
28:00
large proportion of the population lives
28:03
above the poverty line and so what is
28:07
the next most important thing
28:11
essentially if evolution has got us to
28:13
be able to survive in life and we get
28:19
born essentially into a system that
28:22
allows us to survive not everyone
28:25
because there is a large proportion of
28:27
the population below the poverty poverty
28:29
lines for these talks and not really
28:31
relevant to those people ID they’re
28:34
still having to deal with the first part
28:36
which is survival
28:37
but once survival is taken care of then
28:40
it’s next things how do I survive
28:42
happily so that’s this is the next wave
28:47
of evolution it’s turned out that this
28:51
need to survive has turned into a
28:54
psychological need for more so this is
28:59
what’s being corrected and and it turns
29:03
out that that is a happiness the
29:06
correction of the need so where the
29:09
where the biological requirements get
29:13
taken care of but they don’t get turned
29:17
into psychological attachments so we’re
29:25
working on this yeah one as as one
29:35
person works on it’s the beginning of
29:38
the evolutionary
29:40
[Music] 30:02
[Music] 30:07
so we have people in history like let’s
30:12
say let’s go back to Buddha 2500 years
30:16
ago and loud – and many other people who
30:23
started to see life beyond what the rest
30:28
of the people around them was seeing it
30:31
as so you could say they were the first
30:35
sparks in the evolutionary change to
30:39
living life happily
30:41
so we survive with we’re now surviving
30:44
and now how do we survive happily and
30:46
then once that starts to show up in a
30:52
couple of people they started sharing
30:56
because of course the evolutionary
31:00
impulse is to bring everyone up to that
31:03
level so then there’s a talking about it
31:06
and what was what evolution has
31:10
effectively brought about as insight in
31:12
these people gets shared and it spreads
31:17
and so there is more and more of that
31:24
where before there was less and once it
31:28
gets to a certain balance of power the
31:33
change will happen very quickly so in
31:38
some hundreds of years if humanity still
31:43
exists humanity might laugh at history
31:48
and say can you believe that there was
31:52
this there was this psychosis that was
31:56
put in place as part of our evolution
31:58
where we killed each other because we
32:03
hated each other because we saw each
32:05
other a separate can can you believe
32:08
that
32:09
humans thought that they were the doers
32:11
and that they needed all of this
32:14
and it could be that I I see that this
32:18
will be the standard happiness for the
32:21
human being will be standard and it’ll
32:27
be the the exception to the rule at some
32:32
point when someone is not happy you know
32:36
it’s where evolution still hasn’t quite
32:39
made it into that that birth right and
32:42
so everyone around will be interested in
32:46
helping that and a few that still are
32:50
coming out where their mindset is of
32:55
separation society will be looking at
32:59
that as the exception and how do we fix
33:01
that and it will be ease it much more
33:06
easily fixed when all of society’s
33:09
operating differently when all of
33:12
society’s operating as brothers and
33:15
sisters that say rather than as
33:16
competitors and enemy means for the for
33:20
the change to happen in in the part
33:23
where it hasn’t quite completely
33:24
happened
33:40
so awakening teachings really important
33:50
because they create shifts a shift in
33:59
the way that awareness is able to be
34:03
aware shift essentially allows awareness
34:07
to take a step back now why isn’t
34:10
awareness you know like that to start
34:14
with and I would say it’s part of our
34:16
development the way development happens
34:19
is that everything is seen from the
34:23
perspective of what we see is the
34:27
subject the body and so anything that
34:35
the lungs or rises through the body
34:38
can’t be seen objectively and so
34:46
[Music] 34:47
something needs to come in to bring
34:50
about a shift so describing the body is
34:56
not what we are describing the body as
34:59
an object the body is something which is
35:04
being observed something which we are
35:07
aware of in this present moment and it’s
35:11
being observed from a place outside of
35:15
the body or from being observed by
35:20
something which is not the body
35:26
something that doesn’t change and is
35:30
ever-present the background of
35:35
experience that which we truly are
35:46
that’s a description that as it comes
35:50
into our system brings about a change
35:55
it’s a oh I’m not the body the body is
35:59
an object can you see how that can
36:04
create a shift from a place where we
36:10
didn’t have that information and the
36:16
body was related to as the subject and
36:20
then information comes in and says see
36:22
we’ve forgotten what we really are
36:25
you’re not the body you are that which
36:31
is aware of the body so the first
36:35
standpoint was watching everything from
36:37
the standpoint of being the body and now
36:42
information is coming in that says don’t
36:45
don’t keep forgetting yourself see the
36:49
body as an object realize that it is
36:53
witnessed from something or nothing this
36:59
what we could call consciousness or
37:01
awareness and know yourself is that know
37:05
yourself is that awareness that is aware
37:08
of everything that arises in this
37:10
present moment know yourself as the
37:13
awareness that knows all of the objects
37:17
as objects thoughts are objects they’re
37:22
not what you are
37:23
emotions are objects they’re not what
37:27
you are feelings are objects in the
37:31
experience they’re not what you are be
37:34
that which is aware of them what you are
37:37
is the silent witness remember yourself
37:46
none of that’s true oh okay I can
38:11
totally see what you mean but would you
38:14
not end up like being totally detached
38:16
from everything and is that would you
38:18
consider that a desirable estate if you
38:21
like walking around and it happens to me
38:23
I’m so detached that nothing ever feels
38:27
real and I was told by another wise
38:30
person that this is not all desirable
38:33
and that I should try to sort of get
38:36
back into the body out of the
38:37
spaciousness of being solely touched I
38:40
agree I mean I agree in principle I’d
38:44
say go to your experience and assess the
38:49
experience honestly for yourself and if
38:53
there is no problem with it then why
38:57
listen to someone else who’s saying
38:59
there’s a problem when in your
39:00
experience there’s no problem okay but
39:05
what is very often is that what happens
39:10
is that as a result of that input that
39:15
new conditioning that is there to bring
39:17
about a shift a shift that is important
39:20
and we can at some point start to bypass
39:25
what’s still here mm-hmm and look in the
39:30
other direction because it’s more
39:31
comfortable to look in the other
39:32
direction
39:33
yeah yeah I think that’s what you meant
39:35
hmm and so at some point after certain
39:40
shifts there’s a lot of work that needs
39:42
to still be done and that work requires
39:46
us to start holding the concepts that
39:52
were very useful at bringing about a
39:55
shift a little bit more loosely and
39:57
that may be seeing them as not absolute
40:01
truths if we don’t we’ll keep wanting to
40:08
go further and further out into the
40:11
nothingness yeah so at some point we do
40:18
need to come back into the body and
40:20
inhabit the body and find out what is
40:22
uncomfortable when we acknowledge being
40:26
a person and so when that happens if we
40:31
come back into acknowledging being a
40:33
person and having an experience from the
40:36
perspective of the body it tends to feel
40:39
uncomfortable if stuff hasn’t been
40:41
resolved and when it feels uncomfortable
40:43
someone says ah you know teachings are
40:46
correct being a person is the problem so
40:50
I’ll go back out there again and we can
40:53
have this movement of each time we’re
40:55
dragged back down into the body which is
40:58
at a certain point life saying that’s
41:01
where you need to be
41:03
we essentially or certain thinking drags
41:08
us back out to the spaciousness which is
41:11
not necessarily the same spaciousness
41:14
that is available once we have cleared
41:18
the vehicle out of any remaining
41:22
misunderstanding so there’s two sorts of
41:26
spaciousness there’s a bypassing
41:29
spaciousness which essentially is a
41:33
dissociation from the body and then
41:37
there’s a spaciousness that is the
41:40
spaciousness of a clear vehicle and can
41:44
you describe that a little more well and
41:47
how to distinguish between the two um
41:52
well the the dissociation experience the
42:01
wit turns into a dissociation because I
42:04
first the the shift to see the body and
42:09
see everything from this with
42:10
in perspective is needed but then if we
42:14
don’t if the process keeps throwing us
42:17
out further in that direction whereas
42:19
maybe an optimization is coming back
42:24
down if it if it keeps us up there at
42:28
some point we’ll start to feel like
42:29
something’s not quite right and the
42:32
reason is because my suggestion is that
42:34
the process is a process of bringing us
42:37
to live fully as the human being and so
42:41
if if we’re still in a cul-de-sac a
42:45
spiritual journey cul-de-sac of being
42:48
formless awareness at some point it’s
42:52
not going to feel right if the journey
42:54
is about coming and living fully as a
42:56
human being and so if we can start to
42:59
pick up on that the sense that
43:01
something’s not quite right here
43:02
something doesn’t feel quite right then
43:06
that becomes our indication that maybe I
43:11
need to acknowledge that coming back
43:14
into the body is is useful so what does
43:19
what’s the spaciousness of being in the
43:22
bodies what you ask can you accept can
43:25
you explain the difference between the
43:26
spaciousness of being in the body and
43:28
the spaciousness of being out there one
43:32
of the things is that we tend to have
43:36
this flip-flopping when we’re in the
43:40
spaciousness then isn’t centered in the
43:42
body and the flip-flopping is where we
43:45
sort of get dragged back in come across
43:48
the stuff that isn’t resolved yet and it
43:57
feels uncomfortable whereas the
44:01
spaciousness of the body is where it
44:05
sort of remains constant because the
44:09
vehicle is now being cleared out but
44:11
then the fact that I’m talking about
44:13
this is if one’s good or one’s bad it’s
44:15
a process so it’s not really about one
44:17
it’s we can’t choose it’s a process that
44:20
takes us from one place to the other
44:23
and so what we’re talking about here is
44:25
essentially we do need to come back into
44:27
the body and clear out and it’s not our
44:30
doing it’s not we don’t do the clearing
44:32
out the clearing out happens but if
44:35
we’re not willing to acknowledge certain
44:39
things and feel certain things then
44:43
essentially it’s another way of putting
44:46
things under the carpet and looking in
44:48
the other direction
44:59
yeah and I’m sort of still in that
45:03
process I think and it’s interesting you
45:06
mentioned that flip-flopping because I
45:08
have I usually go through a period of
45:11
very high energy and I’m like wow I can
45:14
hardly manage to sit still and soar
45:17
Najarian everything’s just like install
45:19
and suzy asking and then if the flip
45:23
comes and i’m just in the hammock for
45:25
one day or two so but but it all feels
45:30
very blissful but but then I’m wondering
45:32
whether that list that I’m feeling it’s
45:37
part of the ego that doesn’t want to
45:39
really let go of that stage and go on to
45:42
the next step of the ladder because if
45:47
you’re so good
45:50
well I focus on the stuff that doesn’t
45:53
feel so good because if you can’t find
45:56
the stuff that doesn’t feel so good
45:59
why go anywhere careful what you wish
46:04
for
46:05
mmm yeah but the the likelihood is that
46:09
if we’re really honest we find because
46:13
the way you described it is sort of high
46:15
energy and low energy yeah but look the
46:18
low energy feels fantastic even the high
46:20
energy feels fantastic
46:22
and so to me it sounds like it’s all
46:24
fantastic yeah but then you need to be
46:29
honest not to me but yourself
46:32
when because you might have left out the
46:34
bits where it feels really really
46:37
uncomfortable if they’re there yeah I
46:42
don’t know if they’re still there
46:43
because I had them and maybe I worked
46:45
through them but then I’m not sure
46:46
because it feels like there they aren’t
46:49
any left but it might be an ego thing
46:53
that you know like an illusion because
46:55
there will always be some left right I
46:57
mean we always see to work stuff out
47:00
probably it never ends
47:01
um well I’m sure I think we have
47:06
sections I think some some things can
47:08
end like I think the basis of suffering
47:11
Kinane
47:11
and then there’ll be something else that
47:13
would be the next evolutionary wave
47:16
beyond the end of suffering so that I
47:21
don’t think the process of rennes but I
47:23
think that when we look at and not when
47:25
I said I think it becomes self-evident
47:29
that as the suffering starts to get less
47:31
there’s a reason why it’s getting less
47:33
because certain beliefs are being
47:35
uprooted and so the beliefs are not
47:38
you’re not uprooting essentially this
47:41
tiny belief in this tiny belief in this
47:43
tiny believe what’s being uprooted is
47:45
the underlying principle that feeds all
47:48
of our belief system and so when that
47:51
principle is uprooted completely all of
47:56
the suffering can fall away so I don’t
47:59
see any reason why suffering can’t fall
48:02
away completely in fact I know it can as
48:07
long as the underlying belief systems
48:11
are seen through yeah okay thank you
48:32
so the flow of flow of life I’ll
48:35
reiterate again the flow of life is
48:38
always either pleasure or pain meaning
48:43
the circumstance is what we like or what
48:46
we don’t like the circumstance is in
48:49
line with our biological preferences or
48:51
out of line of with our biological
48:53
preferences and one of the things that
48:57
causes suffering is the belief and it is
49:01
a belief that in order for things to be
49:05
okay life needs to be pleasure pleasure
49:09
pleasure pleasure and actually the flow
49:12
of life the circumstance of life is
49:14
never going to be pleasure pleasure
49:17
pleasure pleasure we just need to look
49:20
at all of the variables that make up
49:22
life and we see that when
49:25
not in control of those and the other
49:27
person isn’t always going to do what we
49:29
want the shop is not always going to
49:32
have the ingredients that we want people
49:34
that we care about and love and not
49:36
going to live forever people that we
49:39
trust are sometimes going to let us down
49:44
fireworks are going to give us frights
49:51
babies are going to be crying when we’re
49:53
trying to sleep that’s all circumstance
49:57
and the flow of life flow of life means
50:01
the changing circumstance he’s going to
50:06
be a mix of pleasure and pain and so if
50:09
we have an idea which is part of our
50:12
self-identity that says I need life to
50:18
be pleasure pleasure pleasure pleasure
50:20
pleasure
50:21
it’s a problematic identity isn’t it
50:25
it’s going to be something that is going
50:28
to be bumped into by the flow of life
50:31
and then we’re going to have to resist
50:35
the flow of life so to the extent that
50:44
something as simple as a description
50:47
that says yes the flow of life is always
50:49
going to be pleasure and pain sometimes
50:51
pleasure sometimes pain and I’m not in
50:53
control of it and even the other isn’t
50:57
the one determining whether it’s
50:59
pleasure or pain so it is what it is
51:02
shows up at any moment
51:05
either pleasurable or painful
51:08
to that description if we hear it and we
51:12
go that makes complete sense can be a
51:19
huge step towards dissolving a belief
51:24
system that is expecting one day life to
51:28
be magically pleasure pleasure pleasure
51:29
pleasure pleasure
51:51
I’ve questioned concerning what we are
51:55
not what you read nor mentioned so I
51:59
find it easy with thoughts to experience
52:03
somehow I’m not my thoughts I also find
52:05
it easy with let’s say my legs or hands
52:10
or stomach but as near I it comes to the
52:14
head the face or something I something
52:18
very difficult to say how to experience
52:21
I’m not my face for example I don’t know
52:24
where this difference comes from but
52:26
it’s more feels very difficult mm-hmm
52:30
yes remember though I did actually say
52:33
none of that was true and what do I mean
52:38
by that
52:38
but let’s bring that’s that’s I started
52:42
off saying that that’s the case you are
52:45
not the body witness the body right but
52:49
I also said that that was a part of a
52:52
teaching a methodology to bring about a
52:55
shift and so um because essentially I
53:06
don’t know what this teaching is turning
53:09
into it’s not solely an awakening
53:11
teaching if it was solely awakening
53:13
teaching I’d never say that what I’m
53:15
saying is not true because it can lose
53:18
its impact a little bit about you are
53:21
not the body you are not your thoughts
53:23
so an awaking teaching understands a
53:30
methodology that’s required to bring
53:32
about certain shifts and then it sticks
53:34
to that methodology and it has the
53:37
effect and then hopefully we hear
53:42
someone say you know those statements
53:45
they’re not truth they are accurate from
53:52
a certain perspective
53:56
but they’re not absolutely true but
54:03
actually that doesn’t address your
54:06
question your your your problem let’s
54:08
call it a problem so you feel do you
54:11
feel that there’s a problem feeling like
54:15
you are your face and what is that a
54:25
problem relative to the idea that some
54:28
one day I will know myself as not the
54:31
body so what if knowing yourself as the
54:37
body is not at all a problem would you
54:41
still have a problem with knowing
54:43
yourself as your face or if if there was
54:51
no problem with knowing yourself as the
54:54
body right so let’s say the teachings
54:57
said something different and since
54:58
there’s no problem with knowing yourself
55:00
as the body do you have a problem with
55:03
then knowing yourself as your face no so
55:07
actually you have a problem with knowing
55:09
yourself as your face relative to the
55:10
concept that knowing yourself as the
55:12
body is a problem and I don’t think
55:15
there’s any problem with knowing
55:16
yourself as the body actually you are
55:17
the body I mean it
55:25
um you’re not exclusively the body but
55:28
you’re the person I’m a person
55:31
I say Romina was a person Allah I can’t
55:34
I find it funny when someone says no he
55:36
wasn’t a person and I understand why
55:41
they think that because they’ve gone
55:42
through a teaching that says you know
55:45
the person must dissolve what it what it
55:48
really means I say this to the camera
55:50
because it’s important I haven’t said it
55:51
often but just when you hear those
55:56
teachings but say anything about the
55:58
person being the problem the person
56:00
dissolving understand what they’re
56:02
talking about is a certain mental
56:05
movement that creates an
56:09
uncomfortableness with life a certain
56:12
mental movement that is part of the
56:15
person and because we really only know
56:19
ourself as that mental movement or at
56:22
least we know ourselves according to the
56:26
picture of the mental movement which
56:27
really says I am a separate independent
56:30
person and I need this this and this so
56:35
that that’s what we’ve come to know
56:37
ourself of and so all the thinking what
56:40
is about this fictitious person that we
56:44
believe our self to be and so the
56:47
teachings when they say the person has
56:48
to dissolve what they’re really talking
56:50
about is this belief in being a person
56:53
that is something very specific a person
56:57
that is a separate independent entity
56:59
requiring all of these things when X Y
57:04
and Zed pleasure pleasure pleasure
57:05
pleasure that needs to dissolve and it
57:08
does it it can dissolve and so when it
57:11
dissolves because we’ve been following
57:15
certain teachings even the teachings
57:17
that say you are not the body which I
57:19
have to I have to keep saying this when
57:21
I said I have a great respect for those
57:23
teachings they’re what were
57:24
intrinsically a very fundamental part of
57:27
my process when that construct falls
57:33
away that set of beliefs falls away
57:36
it feels like the person has dissolved
57:40
at least it feels like the person I knew
57:43
myself as has dissolved there’s a
57:47
spaciousness less of a concreteness in
57:53
our experience and say but when you then
57:58
investigate it a little more closely and
58:01
are willing to admit some things you can
58:04
actually come back and say well actually
58:07
the body is here certain thinking is
58:12
still here not problematic thinking the
58:14
problematic thinking that say has fallen
58:15
away I still experience myself from the
58:20
perspective of this body and if a hammer
58:22
hits the floor there I don’t feel it if
58:24
a hammer hits my knee I feel it so then
58:27
we say well even when this construct
58:30
this mental construct has fallen away I
58:33
still am and the word I like to use is a
58:37
person a body that functions in the
58:43
world and has thoughts and feelings but
58:46
no longer has the obsessive thinking
58:48
that we were talking about at the
58:50
beginning of the talk and obsessive
58:53
thinking that can be like a veil that
58:56
floods the experience and so then all we
58:59
know ourself as is is those thoughts and
59:02
feelings and so then we come back and
59:05
say I am a person but no longer with the
59:08
belief in doer ship and attachment to
59:09
outcomes no longer with that suffering
59:12
thinking that used to arise so coming
59:17
back to what you’re saying what if there
59:20
is no problem with being what’s your
59:22
what’s your name
59:23
Ruka was there’s no problem with being
59:25
vodka as long as certain beliefs about
59:30
Rutger has fallen away certain beliefs
59:32
that are not true
59:38
and then we say wow I’ve been trying to
59:41
get rid of the sense that I am a person
59:44
when I always was a person and I always
59:48
will be a person then our focus can
59:52
change instead of aiming for the person
59:55
to dissolve and thinking that one day
59:57
I’ll have no personality and we become
60:01
more specific we see actually what is
60:02
going to dissolve is certain false
60:05
beliefs that are part of the person a
60:10
bit like an extension of a house right
60:14
there is a house with this extension on
60:16
it and let’s say the extension was
60:18
designed by a really bad bad architect
60:20
the Builder that put the extension on
60:22
was really bad and it leaks and all
60:26
sorts of things and it’s part of the
60:29
house there’s a singular house I mean a
60:32
storm comes along and just wipes the
60:34
extension off hmm
60:36
this is still a house it just doesn’t
60:39
have that extension anymore and so this
60:44
is there’s still a person it just
60:45
doesn’t have that sort of that old
60:47
functioning and that’s why we approach
60:52
it what are we really looking for in
60:53
practical terms we’re looking for the
60:57
end of suffering in daily living so if
61:04
you can see your thoughts from this
61:07
distance I’m guessing that your
61:11
experience is that when was a particular
61:15
moment was it impressive to you when you
61:19
became aware of thoughts as a
61:21
functioning and you were able to see
61:24
them maybe for the first time
61:31
yeah okay um it’s usually quite a
61:35
surprise where we you know in an instant
61:40
maybe see thoughts in a way that they
61:43
were never seen before from a different
61:47
perspective a distance let’s say where
61:49
it feels like oh that’s not what I am
61:54
whereas before they weren’t seen from a
61:56
certain perspective and so there was no
61:58
freedom from them now just because it
62:01
feels like that’s not what I am it
62:03
doesn’t mean that that’s not the person
62:05
aware of the thinking of the person and
62:08
that’s what I would suggest is happening
62:09
when these shifts happen it’s a shift in
62:12
the structure of the person whereby the
62:15
person has a new capacity to witness
62:18
what previously wasn’t able to be
62:21
witnessed and so that part is quite
62:28
freeing because you then be able to see
62:31
thought patterns that I would describe
62:33
as that say attachment to outcome or
62:36
thought patterns based on the belief in
62:39
Ducie doership where we blame the other
62:42
for what they have done let’s say we
62:44
have a partner that decides to leave and
62:48
we have this thinking that says you know
62:52
after all these years all the effort
62:54
I’ve put into the relationship
62:55
everything I’ve done and now they leave
62:57
and so we have this thinking if it’s not
63:01
if that thinking can’t be witnessed it
63:04
means that there’s no no distance to
63:10
objectively see what it is with we’re
63:13
sewing there’s no distance so you’re so
63:16
insanely lost in it and if this shift
63:19
has happened especially if some
63:22
descriptions are given that say the
63:23
problem the suffering is a set of
63:26
thinking based on doer ship and
63:29
attachment to outcome so in that
63:31
thinking where there’s the blame for the
63:34
partner for leaving we are seeing them
63:38
as the doer that is in control of what
63:41
happens in life like they are the ones
63:43
that have
63:44
made the circumstance the way it is so
63:49
if they shouldn’t have left and they
63:53
should have made a different decision
63:54
whereas a different way of looking at
63:56
life is that life is a very big
63:58
happening and everyone is being
64:01
influenced and driven lived by life
64:04
certain feelings arise that we don’t
64:07
create so in the partner they might fall
64:10
in love with someone else
64:11
now falling in love isn’t something they
64:13
do it’s something that happens when when
64:17
we look at when we have this idea of
64:19
personal do ership we see that as
64:22
they’re doing they shouldn’t have fallen
64:24
in love and they shouldn’t have left
64:26
rather than seeing life brought about
64:29
the arising of a feeling that drove them
64:32
in that direction and it wasn’t their
64:36
doing that brought the relationship to
64:39
an end but the happening of life so
64:44
without a distance from the thinking I
64:47
can describe this and the feelings feel
64:52
so real the feelings of the thoughts
64:54
feel so intense that it just sounds like
64:57
blah blah blah to someone that’s in that
65:01
involvement in the thinking when there’s
65:04
a distance and you get a description
65:07
like this even if those thoughts are
65:09
still happening and there’s a distance
65:10
you might see yes actually there is this
65:13
storyline of personal doership and not
65:16
only personal doer ship but attachment
65:19
to outcome is that my happiness is
65:20
dependent on that relationship having
65:23
continued which is not the case the
65:27
human being is capable of being happy
65:30
even when life circumstance changes such
65:33
that it’s painful so there is a great
65:38
benefit in this shift this witnessing
65:44
knowing yourself not as the body
65:51
meaning if you can witness the body
65:54
right doesn’t what so once again when we
65:58
are able to witness the thinking doesn’t
65:59
mean they’re not it’s not the thinking
66:01
of the person and as I’ve said we are
66:04
the person and we have certain thinking
66:06
but that thinking is not created by me
66:09
it happens right so that thinking of
66:12
doer ship and attachment happens because
66:14
I have been designed by life to be a
66:18
certain way and so it’s not my thinking
66:22
and yet it arises in as part of the
66:25
person so this is this paradox it is me
66:28
but it’s not my doing
66:30
um and so if this shift has happened
66:33
where we can see that the body is moving
66:36
and from that witnessing perspective we
66:41
see the movements but we sort of say
66:43
well I’m not really doing it it feels
66:46
like I’m in control to some extent like
66:49
I want the hand to go up so it goes up
66:50
but then we also witness it as an
66:54
automatic movement as part of life
66:57
that’s what that distance can allow us
67:00
to do is to see that that as almost like
67:04
a vehicle or an instant but what in the
67:08
teaching we call a biological instrument
67:10
that is also moving according to its
67:14
design and its makeup so if the leg
67:18
twitches that was a happening right I
67:22
didn’t do it it happened and we can
67:25
witness all that’s that’s a happening
67:26
and from that witnessing perspective the
67:29
description that it’s a happening is
67:30
much more palpably acceptable and the
67:39
description of nando ship goes on to say
67:41
that even the words that come out or the
67:44
action of picking up the body cuz the
67:48
first action I said was just a twitch
67:50
right but this action of picking up a
67:52
glass and having a drink
67:57
it’s really biological I was feeling a
67:59
bit thirsty
68:01
I saw the glass there and then I picked
68:04
it up but on the one hand I say I did it
68:07
but on the other hand I realized this is
68:09
a very complex instrument and the
68:12
feeling of thirst arose and that feeling
68:15
of thirst not something I created but it
68:17
led to an interest in having water so
68:23
this is where that witnessing is very
68:26
important because it allows us to see
68:29
ourself in a different light to what we
68:33
might have seen ourselves before
68:35
essentially as not the doer
68:38
but rather an instrument through which
68:40
life happens and that is the basis of
68:47
the suffering that happens so if and the
68:51
suffering in practical terms is guilt
68:53
so guilt for those actions that happen
68:55
through me that delivered pain to myself
68:57
or to the other where I say oh as the
69:00
doer I shouldn’t have done that I should
69:02
have done it much better and as not only
69:05
the doer should I have done it better
69:06
but as a person that requires according
69:10
to my belief system a person that is the
69:12
doer that should have done it better and
69:14
the person that requires pleasure
69:15
pleasure pleasure
69:17
really I failed miserably in that thing
69:20
I did something that delivered pain so
69:23
pain is an attack on what I believe
69:26
myself to need so with that belief in
69:30
place there’s a big problem so we’re
69:34
going to feel guilt we’re going to blame
69:36
the other on the same basis but for the
69:38
actions that happen through them that
69:40
were painful we’re gonna feel pride for
69:42
those actions that happens through me
69:44
that we’re positive and we’ll say on the
69:47
same basis Omni is the doer look what I
69:49
achieved now because it’s a positive
69:53
outcome it’s a less heavy form of
69:56
suffering but because it’s based on this
69:57
false idea of who we are there’s still
70:01
an uncomfortableness and it’s that
70:02
principle of pride that is at the root
70:06
of shame and shame is the heaviest of
70:09
the suffering form
70:11
and then there is also the expectation
70:17
and attachment to outcomes needing
70:19
wanting life to be a certain way so once
70:21
it becomes clear to our working mind the
70:26
functional part of the mind that the
70:28
real problem is this thinking that
70:31
arises that has a certain flavor to it a
70:35
flavor of uncomfortableness based on a
70:38
false idea of what I am but the full
70:41
side year is not I am a person the false
70:45
side year is I am a person that is a
70:49
doer in control of everything that
70:52
happens and a person that needs life to
70:55
be pleasure pleasure pleasure
70:56
so if the belief in being a person that
71:01
requires and is that those things falls
71:03
away we still continue to be the person
71:06
but without the suffering arising and so
71:12
then you’ll find I’ll find that if
71:14
someone you know if someone hits me on
71:17
the face I know myself as the face to
71:22
some extent what I and and there’s no
71:28
problem with that as far as what we’re
71:31
really looking for goes as far as the
71:33
end of suffering goes there’s no problem
71:34
with that the problem is if we then have
71:36
the story about what being hit in the
71:39
face means about me and my happiness and
71:45
accompany to that story there’s going to
71:48
if it would be a problem if there is
71:50
this blame towards the other as the doer
71:53
as the one that independent to life did
71:59
that so being hit in the face is pain
72:05
and that’s part of the flow of life so
72:09
when that happens I’ll understand are of
72:11
course life isn’t suddenly not going
72:13
according to the rules of life life is
72:16
still going according to the rules of
72:18
life um we can then start our that’s my
72:23
destiny whatever happens in
72:24
flow of life is destiny my destiny
72:28
Orpah and my destiny is part of a
72:30
broader destiny of life happening and so
72:35
this personal blame towards the other
72:38
can fall away
72:40
you know we accept we understand that it
72:44
was my destiny to be hit their destiny
72:47
to do the hitting and then my destiny to
72:52
maybe hit back and once the circumstance
72:56
is over the story about it falls away if
73:02
it didn’t arise in the first place the
73:04
circumstance is over and then we move on
73:06
we might move on in prison for a night
73:08
that’s saying if that’s what was part of
73:12
the circumstance but without a story you
73:15
know this happened because I hit back
73:17
and I shouldn’t have hit back and
73:19
actually it happened because he hit me
73:20
in the first place and he shouldn’t have
73:22
hit me all of that’s the psychological
73:25
horizontal thinking in time based on
73:28
doership meaning life could have been
73:32
different to what it actually is which
73:35
is as we when we come to see at a
73:38
particular way we say can’t it’s it’s
73:40
one big creation one movement and Ramana
73:44
in one of his quotes says that the body
73:48
will be moved by the body’s karma and
73:50
that what is destined to happen in life
73:54
will happen no matter what force tries
73:56
to stop it from happening
73:58
and what is destined not to happen in
74:00
life will not happen no matter what
74:03
force in the universe tries to make it
74:05
happen so then he said so the best
74:09
course of action is to remain silent
74:11
the silence basically he’s talking about
74:14
is the silence of the thinking mind
74:15
where it’s understood that the future
74:18
will be as the future is the past was as
74:21
the past had to be and so there’s no
74:24
commentary to make on it the commentary
74:27
is superfluous
74:37
so if you still don’t want to feel like
74:40
your face we can talk about it more
74:47
there is there is something I’ll add
74:50
which is part of this RL will go there
74:54
next then I’m gonna spoke about dropping
74:58
into the heart a shift down
75:01
consciousness dropping from where it
75:05
tends to reside which is in the head
75:09
because of the main sense organs are in
75:14
the head and so a dropping into the
75:20
heart can start to change the sense that
75:28
we’re located in the in this part of the
75:31
body and if that happens it is part of
75:36
this spaciousness that takes place and
75:41
so the solution to your problem it’s not
75:45
necessarily a problem but so from one
75:47
point we’re saying actually there’s no
75:49
problem with feeling like we are the
75:51
body but if the consciousness is not
75:57
resting in the heart then that that
76:00
might be what you’re referring to and so
76:04
my suggestion is that a lap know that
76:08
the heart is the home of consciousness
76:10
and consciousness is functioning through
76:15
your body so the human being is the
76:17
consciousness of source this is just a
76:20
concept but it’s to allow us to maybe
76:24
visualize ourself a little differently
76:26
the consciousness of source linked to a
76:29
particular body mind organism
76:30
functioning through that body mind
76:33
organism as personal consciousness
76:35
personal consciousness is your
76:36
experience of life that you’re having
76:39
right now the experience of life from
76:42
the perspective of that body and where
76:47
the impersonal consciousness
76:49
links to the body we could say is the
76:52
heart and the sense of I am is the the
77:01
the impersonal consciousness in
77:03
manifestation I am and and we could say
77:12
that the juncture of impersonal
77:14
consciousness and the personal
77:16
consciousness is the heart and we can
77:23
get that that consciousness can so get
77:25
dragged up into the head where it gets
77:28
where there’s a lot of the thinking and
77:32
so an encouragement for the
77:37
consciousness dropped down out of the
77:39
head into the heart is is valid we’re
77:45
just returning home in a sense and
77:50
something that can help is just to
77:52
visualize without trying to force
77:54
anything when you is your sense of being
77:58
do you have a sense of being able to
78:00
drop into a still beingness where
78:07
thinking gets cut off let’s say that
78:14
that becomes more and more available if
78:17
we’re resting in the heart and in order
78:22
for consciousness to come into the heart
78:23
it’s important for us to recognize that
78:27
actually I don’t have to do anything in
78:29
this moment for life to be I just get to
78:34
witness it it’s already it’s created it
78:37
it’s what’s here in this moment is the
78:40
manifestation is the creation and I
78:45
really don’t have a job to do right now
78:48
in fact
78:50
just being knowing that I am having a
78:55
sense that I am awareness is a great
78:59
relief from all of the efforts that we
79:02
tend to
79:03
caught up in in life and so recognizing
79:07
that there’s a great merit in just being
79:09
present with what is a relaxation happen
79:13
and visualizing the center of
79:15
consciousness drifting down to the heart
79:17
as if it’s being pulled down by gravity
79:21
like that’s its home and if we have
79:24
nothing to do it can just drift down
79:27
into the heart and so over the spike of
79:31
space of weeks or months if we say okay
79:35
this is what I’m going to focus on just
79:36
allowing the center of consciousness to
79:38
drop into the heart which means
79:41
visualizing it resting in its home the
79:46
juncture where impersonal consciousness
79:48
becomes personal consciousness and just
79:52
allowing the entire experience visual is
79:57
the is a large component of our
80:00
experience the visual component to just
80:03
be there which means you open your gaze
80:07
allow the full Vista instead of focusing
80:10
on a specific object like me which is
80:13
what tends to happen when we’re in the
80:15
head we are always very focused on a
80:18
particular object when we drop into the
80:21
heart the gaze opens up and we start to
80:23
look at life as a panorama a singular
80:28
experience with all of the people moving
80:32
and interacting the cars moving and
80:34
interacting and we can see the bird
80:36
flying in the corner there and at the
80:38
same time we see a car and people so our
80:42
awareness opens up and we see a much
80:46
bigger picture and then the background
80:49
of awareness comes into view much more
80:53
understanding that wow this is a single
80:55
arising in awareness and we can’t have
80:58
the experience of life if awareness
81:00
wasn’t there if you take awareness away
81:01
the whole thing collapses so we realize
81:05
if I’m aware of life then awareness is
81:09
here and so awareness essentially is a
81:11
field in which the experience arises
81:15
and consciousness can function from the
81:21
heart area which can then give us a
81:23
sense that why I’m not even seeing out
81:25
of my eyes which is not necessarily true
81:29
because if you cover your eyes you’ll
81:32
see that you still are seeing out of
81:33
your eyes but if we allow the center of
81:35
consciousness to drop back we wonder
81:38
where am I seeing from if we just with
81:40
the experience where am i hearing from
81:43
I’m not necessarily hearing from the
81:45
ears is what the experience tells us
81:48
it’s almost like you’re receiving all of
81:52
the input the experience from your chest
81:56
area maybe even from a broader sense and
82:04
you might then find that the whole image
82:10
arises where you thought your face or
82:13
head was if you’re really present with
82:18
the image so what you’re looking at me
82:20
but you also have peripheral vision
82:22
right so when you’re looking and
82:25
listening and what I’m saying you’re
82:26
seeing me but you also if you open your
82:29
gaze have a much broader visual image
82:33
you might even get the sense that I have
82:37
no face I have no head if the center of
82:41
consciousness drops down to the chest
82:43
area like oh actually where is my face
82:48
you be you we have such a strong self
82:58
image mental image of who we are that
83:03
that mental an image leaves a sort of
83:09
residual experience in our experience so
83:13
as that mental self image gets dropped
83:17
away because we become more interested
83:19
in what’s here in the present moment
83:21
less thinking about what we need in the
83:24
future because when we’re thinking about
83:25
what we need we are essentially creating
83:27
him
83:28
sort of imagination of the person and
83:32
what they need and as we become more
83:37
present with what’s here the residual
83:40
mental self-image falls away and so that
83:44
in that residual self mental image there
83:48
is a sense of very much being the body
83:51
so then we go through life really
83:54
feeling all the time like I am this
83:56
concrete body as we drop into into the
84:00
heart and witness life and life is
84:07
really what’s here right now from this
84:11
spaciousness then the sense of the body
84:15
loosens up it’s always there when you
84:17
come back to it and there’s no problem
84:18
it’s not about it
84:20
disappearing but it might loosen this
84:25
thing that you mentioned about oh I
84:28
always feel on my face because that’s
84:32
where the consciousness is has been you
84:35
know functioning for 50 60 years
84:38
and so as we drop here and it doesn’t
84:41
take long actually once it drops here to
84:46
experience something a bit different
85:27
I hear from some teachers that I cannot
85:31
know myself I cannot know what I am
85:35
objectively like it’s a mystery and it
85:40
makes sense to me but how how can I not
85:44
be frustrated as a person that they
85:47
cannot know myself if there is kind of
85:50
desire to know myself well you see if
85:55
one of the problems is the desire to
85:58
know yourself so you say well if I drop
86:00
the desire to know myself maybe I won’t
86:03
feel as frustrated but then I guess
86:08
you’re saying well because the teachings
86:10
also say that this is a journey of
86:12
coming to know yourself right this is a
86:15
movement of coming to know yourself um
86:17
so we have to and and then on the other
86:21
hand we hear or you can’t know yourself
86:23
so then it seems like that’s frustrating
86:26
well I need to know myself because
86:28
that’s what this journey is about but
86:29
then I’m told I can’t know myself so
86:33
let’s just talk about what it means when
86:37
they say you can’t know yourself is that
86:41
essentially when you know yourself you
86:44
find that what is known is quite
86:47
mysterious so I know myself but I find
86:54
that I don’t know very much about oh I
86:57
know myself but not much is revealed in
87:03
knowing myself so this goes back to what
87:05
I was suggesting yesterday with the
87:08
gentleman is that when we actually then
87:10
start resting in our being and in
87:19
meditations or even in the course of
87:21
life we just really drop in to that
87:25
being and become really familiar with it
87:27
there’s something that it tells us very
87:30
strongly and that is I am it doesn’t
87:35
tell it to us in thoughts or in words it
87:38
tells it to us in a
87:40
a feeling where it’s undeniable not as
87:44
in I am and like I exist and I’m
87:49
bouncing about on a I’ve got lots of
87:51
energy not that sort of I exist but the
87:55
sort of it’s undeniable the in the
88:00
experience of resting in our being I am
88:03
that is undeniable so if I asked you and
88:08
we don’t even need that the irony is we
88:11
don’t we think we don’t know our self
88:13
but the self that we come to know is
88:15
here all the time it’s just that we
88:17
haven’t paid much attention to it
88:20
because maybe we think it’s not so
88:22
important right but if I ask you if I
88:24
click close your eyes no okay and I’ll
88:29
ask you a question so close your eyes
88:31
and drop into this sense of beingness if
88:36
you can or just being yourself how in
88:39
whichever form that is and I ask you now
88:41
a question are you dead
88:52
but why do you say no actually I don’t
88:57
know nobody maybe no it’s like I’m I’m
89:02
not asking you theoretically like it’s a
89:05
clear are you dead from your own
89:10
experience you don’t have to go to how
89:13
should I answer this question it’s not a
89:16
conceptual thing it’s like asking you to
89:19
go to your experience to answer the
89:20
question so are you dead
89:25
no why do you say you’re not dead
89:35
because there is some know enough of
89:39
existence of being yes and it doesn’t
89:43
even need to be so if I ask someone on
89:46
the street it probably it works better
89:48
for someone on the street who hasn’t
89:50
gone into all of this do I exist don’t I
89:53
exist and my consciousness or am i the
89:55
body and all of it and I ask them close
89:57
your eyes touch into your feeling let
89:59
that be present with whatever that is
90:02
and I’m gonna ask you a question and I
90:05
ask
90:05
are you dead and they’ll say what sort
90:10
of question is that of course I’m not
90:11
dead I’m alive now then not answering
90:17
that question when why are they saying
90:20
why are we saying why do why are we so
90:22
convinced we’re alive because there is
90:24
this sense of existence functioning
90:27
through us and pervading our experience
90:34
of life for everyone all the time it’s
90:38
what makes me say I am Roger I am this I
90:42
am that is that basic I am this that is
90:46
at the core of our experience and yet
90:50
you know I’m making it sound like it’s
90:53
very obviously there it is there but our
90:56
awareness is not really interested in it
90:58
it’s because it’s always there so
91:00
awareness of it is
91:06
it’s not happening really but it’s there
91:09
it’s not hidden for anything for anyone
91:11
and so a lot of the teachings that say
91:13
abide in I am and talk about I am or
91:19
even self this is the same self that
91:21
Ramana talks about right so this is
91:23
where well I won’t go into it but I get
91:26
some emails talking about are you sure
91:30
you’ve you know awoken to the self I say
91:34
when you awaken to the selves so obvious
91:36
and and the teachings tell you that it’s
91:39
it’s so ordinary in a sense it’s always
91:42
been here and when it happens you say
91:45
and and I and I’m not saying when it
91:47
happens it’s happened for a lot of
91:49
people that the trick is for it to
91:51
become grounded and stabilized that the
91:54
awareness of it where it doesn’t have a
91:55
change so when the gentleman said you
91:58
know are you always aware of the self in
92:01
um you know he threw in the complication
92:05
of deep sleep but because what Ramana
92:08
says is there to bring awareness on this
92:11
which is here we’re not interested in
92:14
investigating it in deep sleep it really
92:16
deep sleep becomes and in significance
92:18
well what’s really important but Ramana
92:21
has to create the fourth state the
92:23
notion of the fourth state as which that
92:25
which is aware of the waking sleep
92:28
waking dream and deep sleep state in
92:32
order for us to become aware of that
92:34
really in the waking state is when it’s
92:37
important and so once we land on it let
92:44
me say is this what it’s all about
92:46
what a joke it’s like such a simple
92:50
thing and in and of itself then knowing
92:57
the self knowing the I am las’ is
93:07
liberation that’s the that’s the that’s
93:12
the awakening of the self-realization
93:16
becoming aware of self then the
93:18
liberation is what comes when that
93:20
becomes grounded and the belief in doer
93:24
ship an attachment to outcome falls away
93:27
as a result of knowing what we truly are
93:30
so we know I don’t actually need life to
93:33
be this way this way this way I am all
93:36
the time so I actually I forgot what
93:39
your question was after all of that that
93:44
I cannot know myself oh yes okay but
93:47
also I have a lot of ideas about I am I
93:49
mean I always for example I was always
93:52
attracted to nisargadatta advice to stay
93:54
with I am what it feels it feels and
93:59
then you said oh actually what is desire
94:02
because no it really feels like read
94:05
more real than anything else but then he
94:08
says something like this I am is not
94:10
real it has to dissolve or disappear I
94:13
don’t remember exactly then you also you
94:18
said that I am is the most real in
94:21
manifestation yeah but it’s not just
94:24
yeah so good you’ve picked up that
94:26
nuance I said they so the the basically
94:30
I’m saying whatever is in manifestation
94:32
is oh actually so whatever we say here
94:37
is a concept whatever any teaching has
94:39
ever said is a concept the only truth in
94:42
the manifestation is the impersonal
94:45
sense of I am now that’s said for very
94:48
good reason so you’ve picked up on it
94:50
think the only truth to them okay that
94:54
so I should focus on that if it’s the
94:56
only truth it’s good then you’ve picked
94:58
up in the manifestation right and then
95:01
you might say okay so it’s not an
95:02
absolute truth I say no it’s not an
95:03
absolute truth in death we don’t know
95:08
what but I have no reason to believe
95:13
that in death I am still exists right
95:17
some teachings say I do now
95:19
remember once we understand teachings or
95:21
teach teachings and we understand why
95:24
they’re saying it in order to bring
95:26
about what particular shifts and there’s
95:28
many shifts along the way then we I can
95:31
understand why our teaching says
95:35
something itself continues after death I
95:39
I have no reason to believe that I said
95:44
I don’t know actually I have more reason
95:46
to bill just to suggest that it doesn’t
95:48
exist and there are plenty plenty of
95:51
teachings that say in its most basic
95:54
form source is not even aware of itself
95:56
in the unmanifest source unaware of
96:00
itself which means I am an awareness
96:05
expressions of source in the
96:07
manifestation now what are we looking
96:10
for
96:11
really say we’re looking for happiness
96:13
in this life as this human being that’s
96:17
in the manifestation so it ends up being
96:20
enough to know the truth in the
96:22
manifestation we don’t need to know any
96:25
truth outside of the manifestation
96:27
actually we can’t we could we’re here we
96:31
know what’s in the manifestation we
96:32
can’t know the unmanifest and so then
96:37
why does miss a get out of teaching for
96:41
example say beyond consciousness or
96:44
something like that there’s lots of
96:47
reasons so some yet many quite a few
96:51
years ago someone came to me and was
96:52
they were following Muji’s teaching and
96:55
they said Mooji says what witness is the
97:00
witness right they said I don’t
97:03
understand I’m trying to understand what
97:06
he’s pointing at what witnesses the
97:08
witness I said nothing witnesses the
97:10
witness right but that doesn’t mean I’m
97:14
saying Mooji is wrong because I
97:16
understand it’s a teaching methodology
97:18
right so I said show me the context in
97:23
which he says er and so when I was
97:25
listening it became clear to me that
97:28
what’s happening is he was talking about
97:31
just witnessing
97:32
for a period of time let’s say so I had
97:37
to extrapolate out of what I was
97:40
watching and what I heard him saying so
97:43
he had been talking about witnessing and
97:48
probably in in that making all of the
97:51
correct disclaimers that it’s not
97:54
someone witnessing something because
97:58
pure witnessing is that’s all there is
98:02
witnessing not a witness witnessing just
98:06
witnessing happening now as I said the
98:09
thinking mind is going to hear things
98:12
and it’s what it hears isn’t going to
98:14
have always have the right effects
98:16
sometimes the thinking mind is going to
98:17
grab something and it’s going to create
98:18
more of the thinking mind and so at a
98:22
certain point after let’s say having
98:24
talked about witnessing strongly for six
98:27
months or when people start coming up to
98:29
the microphone and saying certain things
98:31
and he’s hearing it and he goes I see
98:34
okay so the thinking mind is trying to
98:36
do witnessing which is not the
98:40
witnessing that he was originally
98:41
talking about the now he sees a certain
98:43
problem that’s been set in place as part
98:46
of you know because of relating to the
98:48
teaching a certain way which is always
98:50
going it’s not a problem with the
98:51
teaching it’s just how this happened so
98:53
then he said okay how do I fix this
98:54
problem so he says so what witnesses the
98:57
witness hmm which is not isn’t when he
99:01
says what witnesses the witness is not
99:03
really the witness it’s what the seeker
99:08
has created as the witness someone doing
99:13
witnessing so now instead of correcting
99:16
that he’ll say okay you’re calling that
99:17
the witness so I won’t complain I’ll
99:19
I’ll keep saying it’s witness I won’t
99:21
say this it’s in his head okay they’re
99:24
calling the with so now is okay so what
99:25
is witnessing the witness to try and
99:29
create a shift out of the doing so this
99:34
again heart I was talking about I am
99:36
abiding I am about it now if we go to
99:38
the beginning of his teaching right he
99:40
said my guru told me to abide in I am I
99:44
about above
99:45
I have abode in I am and
99:48
self-realization happened and then at
99:51
some point he talks about um
99:54
even I am falls away right now there’s a
99:57
lot of reasons why one it could be
99:59
because people have got caught up in
100:01
this notion of I am so then we have the
100:03
I thought is introduced
100:05
now the I thought is different to i
100:08
am-ness which is a not a thought it’s a
100:11
feeling
100:12
but from the I am this feeling comes
100:16
then the sense that the thought I am and
100:19
then that can be believed and we lose
100:22
touch with the ironist so then they say
100:24
the I am thought is a problem it is
100:28
because it gets in the way of the I am
100:29
this so the person on the street when I
100:33
ask them are they dead they say no I’m
100:36
alive because there is I am this but
100:38
there’s no real awareness of I am this
100:41
is their core let’s say it’s just in the
100:45
experience and then on top of that they
100:46
say I am this and I need that so that I
100:49
am thought has prevented the self
100:52
realization that saying there’s lots of
100:58
other reasons as well because I am can
101:01
present separately to awareness so I am
101:05
and or I am this being and awareness to
101:08
me are two aspects of consciousness and
101:10
they tend in the process to present
101:13
separately so maybe first I am comes in
101:17
and then the awareness that is aware of
101:20
I am comes in after and and so the
101:24
awareness aspect of consciousness is
101:26
formless and it doesn’t even have a
101:28
sense of I am while it is while there is
101:33
a resting in the awareness aware of I am
101:35
they sort of seem like there too and so
101:39
if they present separately in the
101:42
process one and then the other and
101:45
someone is stuck in the I am or not
101:48
stuck in the I am but the bursting forth
101:51
of I am has happened what Ramana refers
101:54
to is a hums for Ana the bursting forth
101:57
of I am
101:58
it’s like realize oh I am and then this
102:02
other aspect of consciousness the
102:05
formless awareness which seems much more
102:08
empty and sometimes more real when I say
102:13
sometimes at certain parts of the phase
102:15
it’s like oh that’s the ultimate and
102:17
then it’s like beyond even that maybe we
102:22
might get told so to me beyond that
102:24
there’s the unmanifest absolute nothing
102:28
and then we might think oh and so I have
102:32
to know that I need to know the ultimate
102:34
right but the unmanifest is exactly that
102:37
we need to know that I am and awareness
102:40
have come out of the unmanifest so the
102:43
source of I am and awareness in theories
102:46
the unmanifest but when we understand
102:49
what the theory of it which I can never
102:53
know that in the unmanifest there is
102:56
nothing not even awareness so there’s no
103:00
question of knowing the unmanifest and
103:04
do we need to and Maya no we don’t we
103:07
just need to know in theory that
103:08
everything has come from something
103:11
though from a source and we might as
103:15
well from the perspective of the
103:18
manifestation we might as well say the
103:20
source is the absence of manifestation
103:22
before manifestation and once we have
103:26
that in our model that’s it don’t have
103:29
to think about the unmanifest again if
103:31
this doesn’t become clear we can spend
103:34
years waiting for an experience of the
103:36
unmanifest which is something then even
103:39
God itself has no idea about so there’s
103:44
nothing to know there because there’s no
103:45
awareness function isn’t there’s no
103:48
capacity of awareness awareness is a
103:50
aspect of source in manifestation only
103:54
so it come to know ourself in
103:57
manifestation as I am and awareness as
104:00
the basic components of the human being
104:02
and then the body and see none of them
104:07
they’re not separate in the end they all
104:09
are one single unit the human
104:11
a body with consciousness consciousness
104:14
is awareness and the sense of being and
104:17
then the whole thing sort of collapses
104:21
or not collapses but all of these
104:24
different layers that we’ve been have
104:28
been spoken about throughout the process
104:30
where the human being has effectively
104:32
been deconstructed in order for us to
104:36
become clear on these different aspects
104:38
of the human being the consciousness the
104:41
awareness aspect of consciousness the
104:43
being aspect of consciousness the body
104:46
the emotions the thoughts the feelings
104:48
and halfway through in order for
104:52
something that wasn’t the aspect that
104:54
wasn’t known we say okay you’re not the
104:56
body you’re not the thought you are this
104:59
then that gets known and then it’s okay
105:01
job done there so you’re not that
105:03
anymore now because we now need to
105:05
reconstruct the human being which was
105:08
never really deconstructed it was only
105:10
in a sense actually conceptually
105:14
deconstructed which changes the
105:16
experience to all of these different
105:18
shifts then bring it back and say okay
105:21
well actually I am the human being with
105:25
consciousness that I’m now familiar with
105:29
and so this question of knowing myself
105:35
what is it that I am what is it that I
105:38
come to no I would say essentially we
105:41
start off being a human being that is
105:44
unaware of the being and awareness
105:47
aspect of the human being so we’re
105:50
running around in life trying to get
105:51
somewhere doing things the consciousness
105:55
and awareness is always there that’s
105:56
where have because we’re having a life
105:59
experience so there has to be
106:00
consciousness and whereas but there’s no
106:02
appreciation of it so essentially we
106:04
know one side of the coin the gross
106:07
aspect of the human so we know that coin
106:11
well and and we think that’s the only
106:13
side and spiritual teachings understand
106:18
that what’s happened is we’ve become
106:21
obsessed with one side of the coin and
106:23
have no idea that it’s a two-sided coin
106:26
so they basically say how do I get you
106:29
to see the other side of the coin okay
106:31
I’ll tell you this side is not real and
106:34
keep saying it’s not real you have to
106:36
see the other side and eventually the
106:40
coin flips in a sense our attention of
106:42
the other side comes in and then we
106:44
become obsessed with just that side for
106:46
a while and oh I am just awareness and
106:49
the bodies and really doesn’t exist and
106:51
whatever it’s the same problem in
106:52
Reverse but it’s a bit better because at
106:57
least the elusive part of the human
107:00
being has now been recognized but then
107:01
you need someone to come and say hang on
107:03
a sec you are the whole coin which is
107:07
the never one or the other
107:10
you are the person which includes the
107:15
consciousness so really we come to know
107:17
our self as a person and how did we not
107:23
know our self as a person before we
107:25
didn’t know our self as a person because
107:26
that the being and the consciousness
107:27
part wasn’t appreciated that hadn’t come
107:30
into awareness in its own and there was
107:34
this belief system in the person that
107:37
said I am a person that is a doer in
107:40
control of things and I need x y&z; so
107:43
again we know our self as a person that
107:45
at our core is consciousness so at any
107:48
point in time we can drop in and realize
107:51
that there is this mysterious core
107:54
because when you drop into the being we
107:58
find this sense of existence and a sense
108:02
of awareness it doesn’t tell us where it
108:04
came from doesn’t tell us whether it
108:07
will be there tomorrow it doesn’t have a
108:10
personality it doesn’t have this is the
108:12
core of the human being doesn’t have an
108:14
age it doesn’t have a gender it doesn’t
108:17
have preferences so it doesn’t have very
108:21
much and yet the more we dive into it
108:24
the less or the more of just the
108:28
beingness there is and the awareness and
108:31
so we can say the more I dive in
108:34
to the core of my humaneness the more
108:37
mysterious it is the lesson tells me
108:39
about anything so that’s what means is
108:43
that you can’t really know yourself as
108:47
anything definable but you can have the
108:50
direct experience of just this very
108:51
simple being and awareness which is
108:53
mysterious so then we can see how I can
108:58
come to know myself but in fact when I
109:01
know myself I know myself is much less
109:04
than but at least when I know the core
109:07
of myself I know it is much less than I
109:11
imagined
109:12
because we probably have all sorts of
109:14
concepts about what it is
109:40
just in
110:07
is that that kind of awakening of that
110:10
witnessing seems that there can also be
110:21
with even without it becoming just
110:24
moving back into falseness where it’s
110:26
just kind of a thinking mind idea of
110:29
witnessing there still can be seemingly
110:31
here a useful inquiry that yeah there’s
110:36
still some idea from the person that
110:40
that this witnessing is happening and if
110:43
I am trying to dissociate from that idea
110:46
that it’s just no it’s totally it’s
110:48
totally just witnessing and in
110:52
questioning what witnesses the witness
110:54
it seems to kind of bring that same
110:58
movement to kind of what you’re pointing
110:59
at back into the sense of okay yeah
111:03
person body flow but there’s less of a
111:08
sense of being able to say anything like
111:13
a clear understanding of it I don’t know
111:15
if am I making sense and I can try to
111:20
simplify what okay okay so witnessing
111:30
Wow like the witnessing kind of
111:32
awakening of the thoughts and the ideas
111:41
not witnessed by thinking but witnessed
111:45
by witnessing of thinking witnessing of
111:47
thinking by something that is not
111:49
thinking seemingly yes but then there’s
111:54
still an idea there if I’m being honest
111:57
of in the person of that having occurred
112:04
sure it’s okay it like um I guess when
112:09
when we’re talking about the witnessing
112:11
it’s a realization that I don’t need to
112:15
think about life in order for life to be
112:20
there
112:21
it’s a novel at first the that’s an
112:25
interesting tree really needs to fall
112:27
away for the for there to be an
112:30
appreciation that actually in the
112:32
absence of any commentary about life
112:35
life is a weird but that’s the first
112:42
phase it’s a an effortless witnessing
112:48
because its life has always been a weird
112:51
it’s just that there’s been a commentary
112:53
going and so as a result we sort of
112:56
think that life is happening because I’m
112:59
commenting on it like if I stopped
113:02
commenting it wouldn’t happen and then
113:05
to our surprise maybe if the commentary
113:08
stops we realize who there’s something
113:11
that’s just aware of everything even
113:13
when there’s no commentary that that’s
113:21
my day that would be my description of
113:23
witnessing happening right and it’s not
113:26
being done by a doer it’s something that
113:30
happens when the doer ship movement
113:33
falls away and so now you were
113:35
describing maybe a hybrid or something
113:40
that isn’t quite that right no I I guess
113:44
I’m just more just trying to that it
113:52
root out any kind of idea that this
113:58
witnessing needs to kill the idea of the
114:02
person in order for it to be authentic
114:05
and I think this is just false concept
114:11
in terms of how what you’re pointing to
114:13
yep it’s so often when witnessing is
114:18
being described in order to bring it
114:21
about it’s helpful to point at the
114:25
illusory nosov us being the person
114:29
because it does create a shift into
114:32
let’s say the awareness s
114:34
effect of the person and so ultimately I
114:42
wouldn’t say that I would say it is the
114:44
person doing the witnessing but in order
114:50
to bring the witnessing function of the
114:53
person into operation and say we need to
114:59
sometimes be told that the witnessing is
115:05
not something that the person does is
115:08
there also something that this process
115:12
seems to then thing in thought of
115:19
everything before was there was a
115:23
falseness till that to that filter
115:25
before this opened because there was a
115:30
sense of I know what even though I
115:31
didn’t know there’s a sense of knowing
115:33
of what something is with no evidence of
115:37
that that I know what a person is just
115:40
kind of a false claim of knowing that’s
115:42
that’s coming from the seemingly the
115:44
thinking mind and sometimes a little bit
115:46
when it comes back and there’s like oh
115:48
yeah how would I really know where was
115:51
that coming from the tech that I guess
115:53
the question is the false claim of
115:55
knowing and the thinking mind if you
115:57
have anything well you can just say it
116:01
was there you we recognized that we
116:04
think we know all sorts of things
116:08
whereas actually we have a very relative
116:11
experience of them and the relative
116:14
experience doesn’t actually tell us
116:16
anything absolutely and that’s one of
116:21
the realizations when witnessing happens
116:24
is that we realize our thinking was
116:29
limiting what is always can was
116:33
essentially reducing what is down to
116:37
what we said it was and the witnessing
116:42
is actually a dropping away of what we
116:43
say it is in a an opening up
116:48
and and knowing life beyond the labeling
116:52
essentially and labeling comes back in
117:03
afterwards it’s mentok labeling is fine
117:05
labeling actually is very important in
117:09
order for us to communicate and even to
117:11
experience life on the level of duality
117:13
it’s just labeling comes in without
117:17
obscuring in the way it did when we were
117:20
labeling things absolutely when we label
117:23
things this is this and this is this and
117:26
we don’t know any other way of knowing
117:29
life the labeling is absolute then we’re
117:32
encouraged to drop all our labels and
117:34
the experience becomes what we could
117:40
call more true we realize oh I know it
117:45
free of labels and then we can bring
117:48
labels back in and say oh yeah we can
117:50
call that a tree and it doesn’t take
117:52
away from the expansiveness or that
117:58
understanding it to ultimately be not
118:02
label label would you say there’s from
118:07
the thinking mind that even though it
118:09
seems like many things are thought about
118:11
most of the thoughts are happening
118:14
really on the agenda of belief and
118:17
doership
118:17
an attachment outcomes even though you
118:19
could be thinking about many things it
118:21
seems like there’s always that the
118:24
movement is always to try to relieve
118:26
suffering or find pleasure to relieve
118:29
the suffering that it’s not I’m not
118:30
quite clear as there even with the
118:32
seeking I can see that
118:34
the lack of clarity even though it might
118:37
be there that what I want is to relieve
118:39
suffering and then I maybe do inquiry
118:41
but if I’m not really clear it can feel
118:44
disassociated if I’m being honest I
118:47
don’t know if that was clear um well if
118:53
we just say stop
118:56
you know because we think or what I want
118:59
is the end of suffering so I need to
119:00
bring it make it happen
119:02
just every now and again we just say
119:07
stop to ourselves and the stop means or
119:10
actually what I’m looking for is here
119:13
already and it’s been covered up by all
119:15
my thinking you know the thinking I’m
119:19
doing so there’s more value in saying
119:24
stop stop which is a thought that can
119:30
bookend our thinking and somehow I mean
119:35
we seem to think no that’s definitely
119:37
helped me how’s that gonna help stop my
119:40
thinking is useful it’s not stop and
119:44
they can be this stopping and dropping
119:47
into what is more real seems like there
119:53
has that can happen sometimes but
119:55
there’s a belief that it’s not possible
119:57
sometimes no sometimes it isn’t because
120:00
we aren’t the ones that bring about the
120:04
stopping um it’s it’s in stopping
120:09
happens when it’s destined to happen so
120:10
the notion that Oh in this moment I
120:14
should be able to do stopping is also a
120:17
problem because in this moment it might
120:20
not be destiny for the stopping to
120:22
happen so really just to know that the
120:26
peace the freedom is a freedom from
120:30
thinking and so if we feel like there is
120:34
a lot of thinking happening and and we
120:38
realize it’s obscuring our peace we just
120:41
say stop and it might stop and if it
120:44
doesn’t then stop resisting it because
120:48
you say there was destiny in this moment
120:50
for it to be ongoing so then there’s a
120:54
witnessing of the continuous thinking
121:03
that equates stop drop into the heart
121:07
open your gaze because it’s bringing you
121:10
into the present moment so it’s really
121:12
saying you can stop thinking and just be
121:14
present with what’s here which is not in
121:21
our control right so if it doesn’t
121:23
happen don’t think it’s necessarily
121:26
available because it might be destiny
121:29
for that half-hour period or that day to
121:33
not include a stop the fact that it’s
121:37
being introduced in the talks and you
121:40
think about it a bit and understand it
121:43
intellectually yes stop if it happens is
121:46
great might mean that you see the
121:49
thinking at a certain time and the
121:52
thought just is stopped and you drop
121:55
into the present moment and just be with
121:59
the visual aspect of the present moment
122:01
the sound aspects the touch aspects and
122:05
see how it’s a very caught in each
122:08
moment it’s a very complex multi-sensory
122:11
experience that I’m not at all
122:14
interested in most of the time because
122:15
I’m thinking about how I’m going to stop
122:17
suffering and where I need to go and
122:20
it’s very simple just come here and be
122:22
present with the experience which is an
122:27
experience arising in conscious and
122:29
become present with the experience and
122:31
you sort of become it’s an investigation
122:34
into the nature of experience you’re
122:37
being present with experience and
122:39
experience requires consciousness
122:42
requires awareness the and being so if
122:44
you’re present with experience you’re
122:46
present with consciousness your own
122:49
consciousness

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