01-19-2019 Roger Castillo – God isn’t to be found “out there”

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yeah if anyone has any questions that
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they want to start the satsang with it’s
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very welcome today
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doesn’t have to be a question it could
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be a comment or sharing
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you can just say no but curiosity you
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had said you had kind of spent some time
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you know with the Course in Miracles and
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there seems to be some links in some of
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the points there with what your teaching
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is and if words came around that that’s
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fine if not if not that’s fine too
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yeah I guess it’s a bit bit of an open
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open field to just talk about that
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because I kept asking more specific yeah
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if you have something more specific it
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seems to be no it’s kind of obvious that
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the pointing of the kind of how it
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points to the authority problem in the
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Course in Miracles how you know the
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essence of yourself suffering is the
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belief that you created yourself
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and this which is more
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but
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that
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and sit sit
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sixty-five
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um
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[Music] 02:32
almost like legal contract in a sense
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that it doesn’t leave anything out so
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you take two paragraphs or a page and
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everything is answered all of the
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caveats and things that are contained in
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the writing it’s a very precise piece of
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work and that’s why I liked it it it
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meant that if we were willing to
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contemplate really think about what it’s
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saying it it’s sort of formats the brain
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in a certain way and that’s why it’s not
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appealing to a lot of people because
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it’s like it’s all too complex in a
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sense I tend to say that this process is
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about nuance and paradox and at the end
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really we have to hold paradox so we
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have to be willing to start looking at
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nuance and start looking at the finer
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finer details of what is actually meant
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when something is said and so a lot of
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teachings say certain things because
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it’s appropriate to get the psychology
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to shift in the way that is needed and
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so that’s why teachings are esoteric
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sometimes that the esoteric teachings
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are like that because they essentially
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present a reality or an explanation of
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reality that is radically different to
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what we’ve come to see and know ourself
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as see life as a nice office and so what
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that does is it sort of creates a shift
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in the brain in the thinking whereby
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the thinking sees oh I was so wrong so
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we are not the body for example or we
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are not the person is included in
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esoteric teachings now why is that said
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is it true that we’re not the person
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I don’t think that in the end and there
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isn’t really an end but once we get to a
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point where life is being lived in peace
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free of a certain type of thinking the
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acknowledgement that I am person the
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living as a person experiencing oneself
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as a person from my experience is very
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much there so living as a person
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acknowledging myself as a person
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functioning as a person is not in
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opposition with freedom now what is the
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freedom I’ve read them from a certain
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type of thinking and when we look at
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that type of thinking it’s thinking that
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includes in it is infused in it a
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certain attitude about who we are and
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what life is and so all of that all of
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the thinking comes through the filter
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that has essentially certain beliefs as
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its basis and that means that all of
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whenever we engage in life there is a
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thinking that says this is what I am
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this is what I need and the other is
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seen as a competitor and an enemy and a
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rival and so then when the other does
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something that’s not in line with us the
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thinking is one of me against the other
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and of uncomfortableness and that
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thinking becomes obsessive and incessant
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and it can become basically a baseline
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that we just get used to and that
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there’s no capacity to stop that unless
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life runs interference in a particular
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way so if we just are told stop thinking
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that way it’s not adding any value it’s
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adding a load of suffering on top of the
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unfortunate situation that’s happened it
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might sort of make sense on some level
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but
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it just doesn’t happen the thinking
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carries on because we’ve been shaped to
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think that way and so in a way
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understanding psychology a teaching will
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come in and say you are not the person
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leave the person alone and remember who
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you are
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you are you have forgotten yourself and
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this is a process of remembering and so
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in the teaching and we will say you have
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believed yourself to be the person that
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is the illusion that is the error what
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you are is not awful you are not a
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person so if we close our eyes and we’re
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told or you don’t have to close your
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eyes but it might be fun if you’re told
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all of these things then any thinking
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about the person any thinking about what
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I need about what happened yesterday
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seems a little less relevant if you’re
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remembering yourself as that which is
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not a person and it can create a
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distance
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oh yeah I got involved in being a person
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in the thinking that says I own a person
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and I need this and I need that
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and so these pointers are essentially a
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way of creating a platform and
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environment in which something that
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wouldn’t happen before can happen a
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distancing from a certain type of
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thinking
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that has become a baseline and disturbs
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the present moment so when you said
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something like a Course in Miracles is
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pointing essentially at the same thing
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but it does it in a more esoteric way
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I’d agree so let’s see if I can remember
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the very first paragraph at the front of
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the course that essentially sums it up
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the does anyone remember it the world is
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illusion or the world is unreal I should
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remember it um so yeah so something like
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the world is unreal that which is real
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can’t be threatened therein lies the
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peace of God so what it’s essentially
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pointing at is a difference between the
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unreal and the real and knowing the real
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delivers the thing what’s referred to
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there is the peace of God and it’s about
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the undermining of a certain type of
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thinking that is essentially not in line
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with life and bringing a connection to
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that which is what we are and so in this
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teaching we’re essentially saying that
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the deeply ingrained belief that has
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been put in place is the belief in do
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ership an attachment to outcome so a
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belief that sees ourself as a separate
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independent entity that is in control of
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everything that’s going on and the
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belief that my happiness is to be found
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and outcomes and then we go on and try
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to highlight that that’s not actually
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what the human being is the human being
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isn’t a separate entity independent and
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isolated from life and the human being
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doesn’t require life to be pleasure
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pleasure pleasure in order to feel at
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ease and contention in life on a
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continuous basis so in this teaching
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it’s pointing out that that
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is the illusion being a human being
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isn’t the illusion though it is we are
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the human being we are the ego when we
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have this extra layer of thought that
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adds in a self-image that isn’t accurate
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so sees ourselves yes as the human being
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and I am the doer and control of
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everything that happens and I need life
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to be a certain way
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see that’s the bit that creates all the
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suffering so some teachings use
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different methodologies to bring about a
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dissolving of that type of thinking and
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even if the methodology is different as
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you’ve pointed out the end result is
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essentially hopefully the same which
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means in the end we get to live as a
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human being but without the continuous
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arising of human suffering which was
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there before and how does it happen it
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happens in the same way that the error
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or the problem happened is that life put
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it in place as part of our evolution is
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part of this manifestation that identity
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that is on top of what we are as a human
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being so a belief system gets put in
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place by life as a result of our
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evolution our growing and then life
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undoes it
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one way or another so somewhat connected
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to that and I guess what I’ve kind of
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gleaned from the course and everything
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is you know guilt blame worry fear
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expectation as a pointing or something
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that I’ve sensed that that guilt I
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perceive it as something that’s coming
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caused by either in action I took or
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something blame something something’s
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happening some circumstance but that the
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original that is the sense of this error
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happening of the belief in doership and
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then I guess to if you had anything to
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say about that you understand yes yeah
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it’s it’s good you bring it up the way
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it’s not only do but attachment to
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outcome so you here in you’ve heard me
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speak a lot about the different forms of
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suffering guilt blame and pride worrying
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anxiety expectation and attachment to
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outcome and you’ve heard me say that
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they are always attitudinal to
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circumstance and not so
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see the
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picking what is at the basis of the
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attitude and then once we’ve seen what’s
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up the basis off the attitude we can
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I talk about
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and and see for a long time what is
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really being said so let’s take an
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example if we’re in so we’re here in
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taro I’ll try and pick some an example
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that we can relate to maybe we’re
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sitting in the cave Rama’s cave and
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we’re meditating and it’s a deep
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meditation and then someone comes in to
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the cave and they’re shuffling around
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and then bumping into you and two other
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people making a whole lot of noise
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and you find that meditation is
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disturbed the circumstance is that when
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we really look at just the circumstance
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it’s that you’ve been bumped into right
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I’m not talking about bumped into where
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you’ve smashed your head on the side of
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the wall and you’ve almost gone
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unconscious right little tap and there’s
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some sort of someone’s dragging their
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bag while they’re getting in position
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and opening as if maybe to get out their
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cushion or wherever mild certain
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sensations so the circumstance itself is
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admittedly we could we call it in this
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not in line with your biological
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preferences and so therefore it’s not in
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line with your biological preferences we
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call it pain but when you look at how
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out of line with your biological
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preferences it is it’s pretty mild
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really you had a little tap
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no one stabbed you in the in the knee
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with a knife or anything that would be
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much more extreme pain much more out of
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line with your biological preferences
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and so
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so the circumstance itself is mild
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then and the attitude to the
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circumstance is based on the belief in
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personal doership and attachment to
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outcome and it starts judging and
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blaming the person for what they are
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doing that is delivering pain to you and
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the pain is usually linked to your
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expectation of what you would like or
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what you need and so in this case
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there’s probably an attachment to the
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meditation having been longer than it
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was
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so that becomes that our expectation
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that’s our attachment to outcome and so
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that is disturbed and so automatically
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where we attitudinally are unhappy
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because our expectation hasn’t been met
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and then we look at who to blame for
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that so the person that bumped into you
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and is making a little bit of noise is
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the is the core is seen as the cause and
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we see them not only as a cause because
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if we understand yes they’re the cause
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but the attachment to outcome isn’t
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there and the belief in personal due
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ership is there there’s a discernment
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that I was bumped into my meditation has
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ended and this some noise so that
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discernment happens but actually it’s
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pretty mild the circumstances mild the
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attitude when the doer ship and
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attachment to outcome is there is that
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we blame the other person for as a
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seeing them as a separate independent
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entity someone who could have and should
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have functioned differently in life
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because we aren’t appreciative of the
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fact that life is a happening and our
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destiny is part of the ground the
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destiny of life and so if this happens
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instead of understanding it was my
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destiny for the meditation to be five
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minutes
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of deep meditation and my destiny for
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this person to come in and bump me and
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to make some noise instead of
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appreciating them that life is always
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unfolding and as part of that unfolding
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of life I’m here and there is a
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continuous movement of circumstance so
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here we are
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circumstance instead of that we have an
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expectation of how life should look and
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then we see ourself and the other as a
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separate independent entity who we
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imagine has the capacity to have the
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capacity as some independent entity
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which really means an entities it’s
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somehow not part of the broader movement
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of life and so this is our essentially
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false impression of ourself and and the
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other
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he wants to he wants to have an
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evolutionary leap in everyone this that
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they haven’t come to satsang so you see
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the like a monkey and animals don’t have
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the intellect intellectual capacity of a
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human humans have a greater intellectual
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capacity than let’s say any other animal
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on earth and RAM issues to refer to that
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as the dubious gift of the intellect is
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that animals don’t suffer in the same
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way that human beings do they experience
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pain but they don’t have the suffering
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that I’m talking about the suffering
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that says all life should have been
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different and you as a separate
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independent doer have disturbed how life
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should be
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they intellect simply isn’t complex
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enough developed enough to be self-aware
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to be able to develop the notion of me
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and the other and and and have a mental
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dialogue in the way way that the human
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intellect can so it the basic
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explanation is it they don’t have a
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complex enough intellect to I’m missing
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the word
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who are essentially a self-awareness not
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in a sense that they don’t know
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themselves as they can’t contemplate
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their own existence put it that way and
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and therefore that form of thinking
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doesn’t happen the human is the only
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animal that can contemplate their own
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existence so an animal will biologically
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defend itself and try to survive but it
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doesn’t have a psychological capacity to
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contemplate its own existence and this
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is the reason humans suffer and animals
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don’t but it’s also the reason that
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humans can awaken to their own
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consciousness and know themselves in a
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much more complex way than an animal can
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and actually experience what we refer to
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as an appreciation of of our core the
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actual consciousness that is functioning
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through us so without this judging the
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animal is essentially free of suffering
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and the human being is forced for as
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long as the intellect has decided to
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interpret everything that happens as my
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doing and the others doing and it has
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this ingrained attachment to pleasure is
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forced to suffer so these teachings are
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pointing out that actually we aren’t
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separate independent entities and
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therefore this attitude to circumstance
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that is forced to arise in a particular
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way when certain beliefs are ingrained
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can fall away and the circumstance
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continues but the suffering that was
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there previously the judgment the blame
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the shame the expectation isn’t there
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which means the difference is your
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antique meditation there’s a bump we
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come out of meditation we realize what’s
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happening and the circumstance is what
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it is but there isn’t this additional
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layer of psychological uncomfortableness
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on top of the circumstance so can you
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imagine waking up in the morning with a
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clean slate not anything that happened
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in the past essentially doesn’t exist
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not nothing you won’t remember
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circumstance but you wake up in the
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morning with a clean slate in relation
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to your attitude to what has happened in
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the past so no attitude of shame or
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guilt and no attitude of blame
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resentment hatred towards the other
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I put it that way because we might
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notice that that doesn’t tend to be how
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we go into the day it’s almost like this
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look there’s a load that comes with us
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when we wake up about what I haven’t
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succeeded at in the past when I’m not
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good enough at what the other hasn’t
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done well enough be it ex lovers or
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parents or siblings society there’s this
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judgment of our self and the other that
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really is a load of guilt and blame that
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we carry around with us and then that
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carries on throughout the day we’re
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continually adding to this load and then
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on top of that there’s the expectation
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of the future how the future should look
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and so I don’t know if you can get a
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sense of what it might be like is if the
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basis on which all of that arises is
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undermined and it collapses like a house
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of cards and then you might find that
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you’re here wherever here happens to be
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and all you really need to deal with is
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the circumstance at hand
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but this load of regret and blame for
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things that happen in the past and
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expectation in the future isn’t actually
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helping us it’s not improving our life
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situation it’s a psychological load on
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top of the circumstance you should turn
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around and so then um someone would say
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well if my belief in personal doership
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an attachment to outcome dissolves
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what’s going to motivate me to live life
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and the answer is that we will still
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have our biological conditioning in
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place and so when attitudinal belief in
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do a shove an attachment outcome falls
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away we still have the biological
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intelligence that is allowed to function
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and it’s that biological intelligence
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that functions according to what needs
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to happen and it it’s not dependent it’s
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independent its separate to the
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psychological belief in doer ship and
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attachment to outcome it functions
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automatically if we’re hungry we move
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towards food so the biological
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functioning if we see someone we know
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with a hey hi it’s been long time what
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are you doing for lunch so that keeps on
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going and to our surprise because we
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maybe haven’t experienced life separate
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of the tendency to want to control life
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and without
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well we might think well everything’s
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gonna go really badly if I if those
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beliefs get get dissolved then practice
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it turns out quite differently that in
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fact we find that life unfolds much more
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efficiently and there’s a spaciousness
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and an openness that wasn’t there before
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so even what is it someone driving their
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car too slowly in front of you like what
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we say is too slowly let’s say they’re
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driving slowly in front of you that’s
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circumstance so without the attitude to
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the circumstance which we’ll talk about
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what’s what really is the issue the
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issue is or the circumstance itself is
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that I’ve had to go from doing 70
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kilometres an hour down to 40 kilometres
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an hour it’s hardly the biggest problem
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and yet we just need to look at others
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or ourself and see what happens
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internally when this is the circumstance
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in front of us what we might become
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aware of is this attitude to the
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circumstance which is different to the
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circumstance itself and when we start
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looking at the attitude to the
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circumstance and we see in it attachment
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to outcomes so we have a idea that I
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don’t want to be going at 40 kilometres
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an hour behind a slow car I want to be
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able to go at 80 kilometres an hour now
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sure it is ideal let’s say according to
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getting to somewhere quicker if we could
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travel at 80 kilometres now but the fact
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is that there is someone in front of you
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that’s driving at 40 kilometres an hour
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so your question referred to guilt and
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blame Impreza this is why we’re talking
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about trying to demonstrate highlight
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this additional layer that’s part of the
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human functioning that is not
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circumstantial but attitudinal to
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circumstance and show hopefully from our
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own experience as we start to notice it
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how that attitude completely fills our
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experience with a sense of
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uncomfortableness and if it’s understood
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meaning if we see that it’s this
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attitude that makes life such a struggle
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and if a part of our thinking starts
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cutting that off meaning essentially
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being a voice of reason and cuts
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something off that would otherwise
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function for 10 or 15 minutes or maybe
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10 years then that’s a great change that
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happens and what we are left with is the
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absence of something and that absence
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essentially is silenced the absence of
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noise is silence and stillness what we
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could refer to as peace of mind in
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comparison to the suffering that was
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arising now I’ve used fairly basic
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examples here now so imagine a situation
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where a business partner steals hundreds
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of thousands of dollars from your
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business and leaves you bankrupt for
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example much more intense form of
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circumstance
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in principle what I’ve been talking
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about about applies in exactly the same
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way the principle is the same the
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intensity of the suffering is often
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related to the intensity of the pain ie
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pain means circumstance and once in
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principle the belief in doer ship and
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attachment to outcome is dissolved if
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it’s completely dissolved because it
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seemed to not be the way life unfolds
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then what we find is regardless of the
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intensity of the pain the suffering
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doesn’t arise it just doesn’t have a
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basis on which to arise anymore and if
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the basis hasn’t been seen to be out of
36:49
line with life then the basis remains in
36:54
place and we’re forced to suffer both
36:57
the small and the big circumstances in
37:01
life
37:06
so this is approaching the subject of
37:11
enlightenment from the top from the
37:14
bottom up looking at it in terms of
37:18
practical daily living and so because
37:20
often we hear about it from the top down
37:23
we can make the mistake and say oh well
37:26
this is not talk about enlightenment
37:29
this is a talk about improving the
37:34
person or something like that
37:36
but if we go into investigating other
37:40
teachings which doesn’t have to be a
37:42
while in the sounds like a you know a
37:45
big project that I don’t have time to do
37:47
if we hear a description from different
37:52
perspective and then we listen to the
37:53
teachings that we resonate with and
37:55
we’ve been listening we might hear them
37:57
with different years and see Wow
38:00
actually what they’re talking about is
38:02
just the ending of suffering when Ramana
38:08
talks about the vasanas and the
38:10
samskaras that’s the suffering there the
38:15
ingrained tendencies and habits of the
38:20
mind and so we’ve got the like the
38:25
Rogers and the Tamas and sattva sattva
38:28
is like neutral and the other two
38:33
slothfulness so laziness and and
38:36
aggressiveness or hyperactivity and
38:40
their different movements of the mind
38:46
the neutrality of the mind is to see
38:50
circumstance not to be it doesn’t disarm
38:59
the mind from maybe even looking at the
39:02
circumstance and saying well according
39:05
to the speed limit this person is going
39:07
too slow you can have that assessment
39:11
you can even say it’s actually dangerous
39:13
to go this slow on a on a freeway there
39:18
can even be biological anger which is
39:21
not suffering this is important because
39:24
based on what I’m saying we might lose
39:29
sight of the fact that there is
39:31
circumstance and attitude and remember
39:35
circumstances on the includes the
39:37
biological and so if someone steps on
39:42
your toe which is part of circumstance
39:46
the attitude I’m speaking about doesn’t
39:48
mean that we have to remain Zen on an
39:51
external basis what will happen
39:56
biologically is there will be a movement
39:59
someone steps on your toe and we might
40:01
push them off we might even get angry at
40:06
them like ah look where you’re going and
40:10
that vertical biological reaction isn’t
40:14
suffering it arises and Falls as part of
40:19
the circumstance the suffering is the
40:22
horizontal thinking that happens after
40:25
that and one of the biggest mistakes is
40:27
where we hear that there’s this
40:29
neutrality available this absence of
40:32
suffering and we think it has to become
40:36
penetrate down onto the level of the
40:39
biological reactions and it doesn’t on
40:42
the level of the biological reactions
40:44
the the human being is still going to
40:46
have its shortcomings and it’s good
40:51
points and it’s going to have its
40:53
biological tendencies and so if we look
40:58
at Nyssa Godard unless I get out it was
41:00
a
41:00
short tempered sage but he’s attitude to
41:06
his short-tempered nurse was one of not
41:11
taking it personally
41:12
so how he used to in his teaching you
41:16
would say you know I am NOT the body
41:21
basically means the body’s going to do
41:23
what it’s going to do no it’s not
41:26
entirely it’s not entirely true because
41:29
you can’t be you know this but not that
41:35
but as part of the process where we come
41:39
to see the automatic functioning of the
41:41
body it can be helpful to realize the
41:46
body is functioning on autopilot and I’m
41:50
going to let it do what it’s going to do
41:53
so if our attitude is an attitude where
41:58
we have an expectation that I’m going to
42:00
become a perfect human being then that
42:05
expectation is going to be problematic
42:07
because this transformation doesn’t turn
42:10
us into a perfect human being we’re
42:13
still going to get angry and feel
42:15
sadness their biological reactions but
42:19
it does mean that there won’t be a
42:20
judgment on our anger arising and then
42:26
falling away just as there isn’t a
42:29
judgment for the person who comes in and
42:32
creates a momentary circumstance that’s
42:36
out of line with my expectation they
42:40
couldn’t be they can be in that
42:42
circumstance they could be biological
42:44
anger towards that person but it won’t
42:47
be of the sort that extends horizontally
42:51
in time
42:56
and if the suffering which is the
43:01
judgment based on personal doership and
43:03
attachment to outcome that extends
43:05
horizontally in time if that happens we
43:08
have to understand that is part of our
43:10
design in that moment that the beliefs
43:14
and personal doership and attachment are
43:17
in place and hopefully we don’t have an
43:21
expectation that we function differently
43:24
in that moment because if we have an
43:27
expectation that we function without
43:30
this horizontal suffering then we will
43:34
resist the horizontal suffering and
43:36
that’s just another layer of suffering
43:39
so what I’m putting forward is a
43:41
description not a prescription a
43:44
description that describes the
43:46
difference between the biological
43:48
reactions which are part of circumstance
43:52
and the psychological reactions and the
43:57
description is saying that if the
43:59
psychological reactions fall away life
44:03
is experienced in a peaceful way where
44:07
there’s peace of mind
44:09
now that is optimal
44:13
but optimal doesn’t mean it’s available
44:17
in a particular circumstance or the
44:20
circumstance and our attitude to the
44:22
circumstance is going to unfold
44:24
according to destiny according to our
44:27
genes and up-to-date-conditioning that
44:29
we weren’t ever in control of and so if
44:33
the understanding is sinking in and we
44:37
see a circumstance happen and then we
44:40
see our judgment of the circumstance if
44:43
the understanding doesn’t cut the
44:46
judgment off then the next best thing is
44:49
for the judgment to carry on and for us
44:53
to have an attitude towards the judgment
44:55
which is one of accepting it as part of
44:58
the overall moment of life
45:03
and if that happens then the attitude of
45:06
Nandu a ship the attitude of
45:09
non-attachment
45:10
is kicking in on the outer level which
45:13
is how it always has to start has to
45:16
start on the outer level and as it kicks
45:20
in on the outer level and starts to
45:23
become established on the outer level
45:24
where we can witness suffering happening
45:26
let’s say witnessing suffering means I
45:31
see it I feel it but I’m uninvolved in
45:36
it because I know that that is a
45:37
happening and not my doing and that
45:43
happens that witnessing happens only
45:46
after seeing the effect of resisting the
45:51
suffering and realizing wow this is just
45:55
an extra layer of suffering on top of
45:57
the suffering on top of the painful
45:59
situation so the understanding tends to
46:07
work its way inward until what we’re
46:13
left with is circumstance which is
46:15
either pleasure or pain and an attitude
46:17
of Nandu a ship and non attachment to
46:20
the circumstance which means we’ll still
46:23
biologically have the capacity to
46:25
function to improve the circumstance if
46:30
we can meaning we see a pipe that has
46:35
broken in our garden and water is
46:37
pouring out not our preference pain in
46:42
the moment if the understanding of Nandu
46:47
a ship and non attachment has kicked in
46:49
will understand its destiny for this
46:52
situation to have presented maybe at a
46:55
time when you’re all dressed up ready to
46:57
go to a party and you see this so it’s
46:59
not what you would like but you
47:00
understand this is destiny
47:02
sometimes pleasure sometimes pain in
47:04
this case pain so there is let’s say an
47:08
acceptance without a judgement of it
47:10
without judging the workman that didn’t
47:15
do the job properly that’s
47:17
we could discern and say they didn’t do
47:19
the job properly
47:20
but without it becoming personal without
47:23
the blame seeing them as the doer that
47:25
has caused this and rather seeing it as
47:28
just part of the unfolding of life so
47:31
there is an acceptance of that but that
47:33
acceptance doesn’t mean that we don’t
47:35
have the capacity to try and improve the
47:37
situation
47:38
so acceptance doesn’t mean idly watching
47:47
circumstance without biologically being
47:50
able to improve it try and improve it if
47:52
you can and if you try to improve it
47:55
we always wisdom knows that the outcome
47:59
is not in our control so I can call a
48:02
plumber and the plumber says yes I’ll be
48:04
there in half an hour I’m just around
48:06
the corner in two hours later he’s still
48:09
not there so the outcome not in our
48:13
control or we say I can do this and go
48:16
to the shed get some pipe and some glue
48:19
and fix it up
48:21
and then we get in the car and just as
48:23
we’re about to drive off bang it bursts
48:25
open again so the outcome not in our or
48:29
we fix it and for the next 20 years it’s
48:32
fine so acceptance doesn’t prevent us
48:37
from in each moment doing what we can to
48:40
improve the situation but without an
48:42
attachment to the outcome and so then
48:47
this means we continue to be a
48:50
functioning human being because the
48:54
biological intelligence continues to
48:56
work but without that load of guilt and
49:02
blame and expectation
49:42
so where there’s consciousness and
49:44
awareness and beingness come into all of
49:46
this because it’s quite a significant
49:51
part the it’s a it’s this movement
49:58
although in practical terms when we look
50:01
at it we can say it’s the absence of
50:02
suffering the falling away of guilt
50:07
blame pride worrying expectation which
50:09
is a whole load of incessant thinking
50:13
that has a capacity to flavor the
50:18
experience very significantly and so
50:21
when that falls away the experience by
50:23
default is going to feel very different
50:27
because those thoughts have a very
50:29
strong flavor to them so that but
50:32
simultaneously to the end of suffering
50:36
there is a connection to ourself that
50:39
happens and both of these things the end
50:44
of suffering and the connection to
50:45
oneself or not things that happen
50:47
instantaneously it’s not something that
50:49
is not there one day and is there the
50:52
next it’s a process there are parts
50:55
along the process that are spontaneous
50:58
so we have insight that happens there
51:00
are awakenings that happen and they
51:02
happen spontaneously in a moment
51:08
that’s not liberation that’s part of the
51:12
process of liberation it’s part of the
51:16
changes that lead to the end of
51:19
suffering the end of suffering and a
51:22
connection to the core of the human
51:24
being so in this teaching framework what
51:31
is the human being the explanation is
51:33
the human being is impersonal
51:36
consciousness of source linked to a
51:39
particular body-mind functioning through
51:42
that body mind as personal consciousness
51:50
so we’re always connected to source the
51:53
impersonal consciousness of source
51:56
functioning through a particular body
51:58
mind as personal consciousness so what
52:02
is personal personal consciousness is
52:06
the awareness of life the experience of
52:11
life the one that we have that each of
52:15
us has each of us has our own personal
52:19
consciousness experience of life meaning
52:21
life as it’s known from the perspective
52:25
of a particular instrument so I only
52:30
really know my personal consciousness
52:32
experience of life where’s the
52:40
microphone Ramesh said our life is like
52:49
a movie from that point of view scream
52:56
and who is watching this movie is it
53:02
personal consciousness Oh a little bit
53:09
confusing
53:11
explain Ramesh um said it’s like a movie
53:15
in a particular sense he said the story
53:19
of life and as part of the grander story
53:22
of life our personal story of life is
53:25
like a movie it’s been written directed
53:31
acted produced and it’s in the can who
53:38
who produced that movie um well the
53:44
theoretical answer is source it’s come
53:49
from somewhere and that somewhere we
53:52
don’t know what that is but we can just
53:55
call it source or
54:00
just nurse at rest or sauce at rest in
54:02
its potential form so before the
54:07
manifestation before the story of life
54:09
or the film of life
54:11
there was nothing this is theoretical
54:14
right this is to provide a framework
54:18
that can help us to come and see life in
54:21
a different light so what we know is the
54:25
manifestation at least what we or what
54:28
we know is our personal experience of
54:31
the manifestation that’s all we really
54:34
will ever know our personal experience
54:37
of the manifestation so in experiential
54:40
terms the manifestation is our personal
54:46
experience of the manifestation meaning
54:49
whatever we are aware of or doing
54:53
whatever the life circumstances in each
54:56
moment so what you’re aware of and
54:58
unaware of now is life the manifestation
55:01
from our own perspective and that’s all
55:06
life ever is for us life is always this
55:08
present moment as life is presenting
55:10
itself and included in that there are
55:14
certain other objects like memory so we
55:17
have a memory of a past that well may or
55:22
may not exist may or may not have
55:25
existed but in practical terms we say
55:28
yes it existed because I have a memory
55:31
of a friend from school and then I see a
55:36
person and it matches my memory and I
55:38
say hey it’s been 20 years and they go
55:40
yes the last time I saw you was in grade
55:42
10 so in practical terms we say well we
55:46
have a memory of the past and it often
55:52
tends to match up with what’s happening
55:56
in the circumstance although we have to
55:57
bear in mind that our memory can get
55:59
distorted it’s a it’s a relative faculty
56:04
so it creates the impression of the past
56:06
and we can look at it from two ways that
56:10
the past really exists because really
56:13
all we have
56:14
though is now and we can also say yes
56:17
but in the now the now exists in a way
56:21
that seems to correlate with our memory
56:23
of the past unless our memory of the
56:25
past has become distorted
56:31
so Ramesh was really saying when he said
56:38
it’s like a movies he’s saying our story
56:41
of life our experience of life is
56:42
predetermined it has been created from
56:46
beginning to end by source in an instant
56:52
the whole thing from beginning to end
56:54
was created so he’s the the concept
56:59
suggests that we have consciousness at
57:01
rest before the manifestation pure
57:05
creative potentiality potentiality means
57:10
it’s in its potential form and if it’s
57:13
potential at some point it needs to
57:15
manifest it needs to actualize and so
57:19
the concept is saying it has actualized
57:22
into this the story of time from
57:27
beginning to end and that these words
57:30
are not my doing but part of the story
57:34
of life and they were always destined to
57:37
happen as part of the story of life that
57:41
is in the can it has been acted written
57:46
acted produced directed and in the can
57:49
and now it’s unfolding and we are aware
57:54
of the movie and the unfolding of the
58:00
movie but really we’re only of ever
58:01
aware of this present moment part of the
58:05
movie and the source is enjoying the
58:10
movie through you yes I’m so yes sources
58:18
seen the movie through you am i enjoying
58:22
well the enjoying part was you sort of
58:27
in
58:27
hosed it on source sources enjoying the
58:30
movie sources having the experience than
58:33
you are having so if you’re enjoying it
58:37
sources enjoying it so we have this idea
58:45
that there is source out there looking
58:50
in on the movie from out there like
58:53
through CCTV or something hmm
58:56
we are the CCTV cameras sources
59:01
functioning through us experiencing life
59:05
from our perspective now so we’re often
59:09
looking for source and thinking where is
59:11
this source so you might have heard what
59:16
is what we are looking for is where we
59:21
are looking from which means we’re
59:25
looking out with like going where is the
59:28
source one day it’ll occur to me only
59:32
the the insight the occurrence is when
59:35
we suddenly realize Oh source is what’s
59:38
looking out of me that the core of the
59:44
human being is personal consciousness
59:46
that personal consciousness is the
59:49
impersonal consciousness of source
59:51
linked to a particular body mind
59:53
organism of vehicle experiencing life
59:57
from the perspective of that vehicle so
60:00
this is where we can potentially this we
60:05
can become potentially aware of
60:08
awareness in this moment when we realize
60:13
what’s looking out of me
60:16
which is something that’s always been
60:17
looking out of and we never really have
60:20
appreciated how significant
60:25
consciousness of the human being is to
60:29
the life experience if you take human
60:33
consciousness away out of the equation
60:36
what what are you left with in terms of
60:39
experience
60:45
so if I had a button that could turn
60:48
your consciousness off essentially
60:51
extract it from your from functioning
60:54
through that vehicle so I pressed the
60:58
button what would your experience become
61:00
like a robot I I don’t feel anything
61:04
well not only like a road the whole
61:06
thing would collapse like it would fade
61:09
to black that’s saying because I’ve
61:16
pressed a button that has withdrawn the
61:18
consciousness that is functioning
61:20
through you which doesn’t mean then we
61:24
walk around like a zombie even a zombie
61:26
has consciousness so when we withdraw
61:30
the consciousness from the human being
61:34
the manifestation in effect has
61:39
dissolved it’s like going into deep
61:42
sleep if you’re in deep sea when when
61:45
you go into deep sleep we could say it’s
61:47
like the consciousness withdrawing from
61:49
the body no longer functioning through
61:50
the body and then the experience of life
61:55
is gone and then it reappears when
62:00
consciousness starts to function through
62:03
the body again and so if someone hits us
62:08
on the head with a baseball bat
62:10
we lose consciousness so one minute
62:14
where there’s a world or our experience
62:20
of this and we have the experience of
62:24
being a body in the world and then it’s
62:31
a curious sight
62:33
and then the consciousness goes and our
62:38
experience of being in a world and the
62:40
world being there goes and then we
62:44
regain consciousness we regain
62:48
consciousness the whole thing’s here
62:51
again so what is being pointed at or
62:56
spoken about is the significant of
62:58
significance of consciousness as far as
63:03
our experience of life goes so whenever
63:08
we’ve had an experience of life meaning
63:11
from the time of conception that say
63:15
once the instrument has developed enough
63:18
that experience starts happening so
63:21
let’s make it simple from birth and
63:24
beyond that in the waking State there is
63:28
an experience of life whatever it is
63:31
positive negative filled with suffering
63:33
or peace that experience is completely
63:38
dependent on consciousness being there
63:41
and it’s fair to say that spiritual
63:46
seekers and humans at large haven’t
63:50
given any thought to consciousness for
63:55
most of their life simply because it’s
63:59
always there so we don’t need to think
64:02
about it in a sense so it presents even
64:08
when we’re not thinking about it however
64:11
if we want to come and understand the
64:13
nature of life the nature of oneself we
64:18
need to sort of become aware of that
64:22
which is always there that we haven’t
64:24
been interested in haven’t recognized
64:33
so what your question was what is
64:37
watching the movie and one of the
64:44
answers is oh the movie is that the
64:49
movie of life the experience of life is
64:52
known because there is awareness of it
64:57
so awareness is one of the two basic
65:05
aspects of consciousness the
65:09
consciousness that is flowing through us
65:11
through the human vehicle has two
65:14
aspects awareness and beingness so the
65:19
fact that I raise my hand and you are
65:21
aware of the hand and the fingers there
65:25
is awareness of it means that there is
65:28
consciousness and one of the aspects of
65:31
consciousness is to be aware of
65:34
everything that arises in the field of
65:38
consciousness and the other aspect of
65:43
consciousness which aspect doesn’t mean
65:46
they’re really two they’re just sort of
65:47
like the terminology sometimes uses like
65:50
facets on a diamond the diamond has many
65:54
facets so I’m just suggesting that
65:56
consciousness for the sake of this
65:59
explanation has two facets the capacity
66:02
or the function of awareness and the
66:06
functioning of what we could call being
66:10
meaning within itself as part of itself
66:15
there is the sense of existence what
66:18
Rama what nisargadatta used to refer to
66:21
as I am this is nice
66:27
beingness and so in meditation if you
66:34
close your eyes the senses slowly might
66:40
withdraw the thinking might still be
66:44
there which is part of the experience if
66:48
there’s thinking physical sensations or
66:51
emotions might be there and if the
66:54
meditation is destined to go to what we
66:58
might call deeper and deeper form of
66:59
meditation essentially it’s becoming a
67:02
simpler and simpler version of
67:06
manifestation meaning that there is
67:09
still awareness of less and less less
67:13
and less objects and in a deep
67:18
meditation as long as it doesn’t flip
67:20
into the absence of awareness because at
67:28
some point meditation goes so deep it’s
67:30
like deep sleep body experience um does
67:36
consciousness well in any Metta body in
67:41
meditation essentially the if we’re
67:43
present with the experience itself there
67:46
is no body especially if you’re sitting
67:48
still and there’s no touch no sight
67:54
because you the eyes are closed so where
67:56
is the body it in so this is where if we
68:00
become really present with experience
68:02
this doesn’t mean there isn’t a body and
68:05
but the experience of meditation is that
68:08
there is no body once the let’s say the
68:11
imagery of the body and certain sensory
68:14
feedback sense of touch falls away the
68:19
experience is of no body so you could
68:22
say out of body but it’s not out of body
68:25
relative to a body so if you have an
68:27
out-of-body experience there is a sense
68:32
of being awareness located not in the
68:36
body
68:37
and the body is still part of the visual
68:41
experience so that is a different shift
68:45
in consciousness that can happen in this
68:49
process but and and that too is a shift
68:54
that is useful that us becoming aware of
68:57
the functioning of awareness let’s say
69:00
because there is a sense that is
69:02
radically different to our normal sense
69:04
that I am aware but from a position
69:09
outside of the body and what that brings
69:14
into focus is this awareness aspect that
69:18
maybe we haven’t landed on before we or
69:21
awareness becoming aware of it self
69:24
awareness recognizing itself so the
69:28
aspect of beingness is a little
69:32
different they’re completely
69:34
interrelated but they can present
69:37
differently one is awareness where it’s
69:40
just formless awareness and no sense of
69:44
being and in another stage what presents
69:48
is the strong sense of I am I exist
69:52
isness and they present separately but
69:57
actually we come to know them as two
70:00
aspects of consciousness and so when we
70:03
go into meditation and the experience of
70:07
an outer world falls away what we’re
70:10
left with is this awareness of being so
70:15
then in the meditation we’ve sort of had
70:18
the opportunity the meditation has shown
70:21
us what consciousness in its basic form
70:25
is awareness and beingness and then we
70:32
can come out of meditation back into
70:34
daily living and hopefully recognize
70:37
that that awareness and beingness is
70:40
what is the core of the human experience
70:44
so then the human body continues to
70:48
function doing whatever it needs to do
70:50
in the circumstance
70:51
and we can remain connected to the being
70:54
aspect of the human remain aware of the
70:58
fact that if awareness wasn’t there the
71:02
whole experience collapses so then we
71:05
become we essentially know the human
71:09
being more completely previously we sort
71:13
of knew ourself as the body or knew
71:18
ourself as the human being but a very
71:20
significant aspect of the human being
71:23
was unappreciated by the human being it
71:25
simply hadn’t come into focus hadn’t
71:29
come into view so let’s see if you you
71:35
can answer the question now what is it
71:39
that is aware of the movie consciousness
71:46
I agree consciousness with consciousness
71:59
within my self consciousness so in in
72:10
different phases it will seem like it’s
72:16
it would be described or felt
72:18
differently if we have certain
72:21
awakenings to the fact that experience
72:25
is completely interdependent with
72:27
consciousness you can’t take one away
72:31
from the other
72:32
you can’t take consciousness away and
72:34
still have experience you can’t take
72:36
away content and still have
72:38
consciousness they’re completely
72:40
interdependent that means that my seeing
72:43
of an object is really not independent
72:47
or separate from consciousness so as we
72:52
start to become more familiar with that
72:54
it a realization happens that everything
72:59
is actually a rising
73:02
within the field of consciousness that
73:05
the whole so how this is sometimes said
73:08
is the whole universe arises in the
73:12
field of consciousness now I’d like to
73:15
adjust that a little bit because that’s
73:17
in theory that the whole universe arises
73:19
in practice this is the universe
73:22
what is arising what is available for us
73:25
to be aware of now is the extent of the
73:29
universe in our experience so then we
73:33
say wow the all of this exists only
73:38
because it fits into the field of my
73:40
consciousness at least from my
73:42
experience point of view right it might
73:44
actually have an independent existence
73:46
that’s a philosophical debate whether
73:50
there is an independent objective world
73:55
out there or not but we come to
73:58
understand the nature of experience and
74:00
say wow the experience of the universe
74:04
which really is about as big as as
74:07
what’s here now so the mountain exists
74:13
within my consciousness
74:21
the body is part of the experience that
74:25
appears within consciousness so from
74:30
this perspective it’s like wow so it’s
74:32
not the body’s consciousness but rather
74:35
the body arises in consciousness along
74:38
with everything else along with all the
74:40
other people along with the cars and the
74:44
trees and the mountain and the Sun if
74:47
the Sun is there the Sun arises in might
74:51
exist in within my field of
74:53
consciousness at least from an
74:55
experiential point like from from the
74:57
point of view of the experience of the
74:59
Sun you know that’s what we’re
75:06
describing here is essentially what is
75:07
maybe sometimes referred to as
75:09
enlightenment I don’t say that’s
75:11
enlightenment that’s an awakening that’s
75:13
a realization of the awareness awareness
75:18
aware of awareness or consciousness
75:20
aware of the field of consciousness and
75:23
previously was always there and highly
75:26
underappreciated the thing from that
75:30
perspective would say well it’s not the
75:32
body’s consciousness it’s an impersonal
75:36
consciousness in which everything arises
75:39
but when we look a little bit more
75:42
closely when we do some more experiments
75:48
especially once we are settled in that
75:54
way of knowing life knowing I mean I’m
76:00
using the word knowing as indirectly
76:02
knowing not intellectually knowing being
76:05
one with the experience from the
76:06
perspective of of being aware of the
76:10
consciousness that is the substrate and
76:13
the background of experience then we do
76:17
some more experiments and so when I had
76:19
a very profound awakening a long time
76:23
ago now that what was fortunate for me
76:26
is it felt so dare it felt like what you
76:28
were describing an out-of-body
76:29
experience and the I the I wasn’t had
76:34
nothing to do in
76:35
experience with the body it was
76:38
experienced that I was out here but then
76:41
also everywhere so the beingness was
76:45
outside of the body and there was this
76:49
very profound sense that if someone came
76:53
along and hacked the arms of this they
76:56
wouldn’t be touching what I knew myself
76:59
as in that moment and so a lot of the
77:05
esoteric top-down adverted teachings
77:08
made sense from in context to that shift
77:13
that had happened and luckily in that
77:16
the hands came up over the eyes and if
77:22
they hadn’t come up over the eyes when
77:25
that experience changed I would have
77:28
been wondering how it would have
77:30
wondered where was life being perceived
77:33
from from what perspective was it being
77:36
seen because experientially it felt like
77:39
it was from no location in particular
77:45
especially not the body and yet I had
77:51
sensory feedback when hands went over
77:54
the eyes that what was arising in
77:58
consciousness changed I mean instead of
78:01
you know you’d think if it was being
78:04
perceived from not through the body if
78:06
hands went over the eyes what was seen
78:10
wouldn’t change and what would be seen
78:14
is you just from wherever it was being
78:17
seen the hands going over the eyes of
78:21
the body would you’d see that but the
78:24
image wouldn’t change but in fact the
78:25
image changed and it demonstrated that
78:30
and I think then the fingers went in the
78:34
ears and the sounds of the experience
78:38
changed so that was very important for
78:42
me that because for a long time my
78:48
assessment
78:49
of that experience meant I was drawing
78:54
slightly inaccurate conclusions about
78:56
what the nature of experience is and
79:00
then it refined where I said no actually
79:03
it’s always consciousness from the
79:05
perspective of the body even if it feels
79:09
like that that a peak experience that is
79:12
demonstrating something demonstrating
79:15
the formless nature of awareness and
79:18
consciousness for example demonstrating
79:22
the nature of experience that actually
79:23
experiences always an arising in
79:26
consciousness and so now my standpoint
79:29
is but that consciousness is functioning
79:31
through the body even if it feels like
79:33
it’s not it still is because we cover
79:36
the eyes and the image changes and if
79:39
someone were to come along and shoot
79:41
this body while an out-of-body
79:44
experience is happening I from from all
79:49
of the different contemplation in I
79:52
would say what will happen is that
79:54
experience would collapse into nothing
79:57
whereas if it’s not a personal
79:59
consciousness experience shoot the body
80:02
the experience remains and that that’s
80:06
what you’d have to conclude
80:13
yes so just for us too so we can become
80:17
clear instead of making sort of somewhat
80:21
wild assessments of what the nature of
80:26
reality is which is what we tend to do
80:30
when these peak experiences shifts
80:33
happen and so we might say that what I
80:41
am is consciousness I am NOT the body
80:43
what I am is impersonal awareness in
80:46
which the whole world arises because
80:49
that’s what the experience or the shift
80:52
the non-dual awareness shift or whatever
80:57
you I don’t know I wouldn’t call it that
81:00
so much anymore and if we do some
81:08
experimenting we can start to see that
81:10
it’s not exactly how we interpret it
81:13
based on how they experience fields on
81:15
the surface which is always the problem
81:17
you know we interpret life based on
81:20
experience without actually
81:22
investigating it a little more deeply
81:24
and so when these shifts happen the same
81:26
error happens we we then start saying
81:28
our life is this new way because that’s
81:33
what the experience tells us experience
81:35
is very relative a big mistake is where
81:37
these shifts happen that the the type of
81:40
shift I’m talking about the type of
81:42
awakening order and because the
81:44
teachings that came before have that
81:47
have brought about the shift by
81:49
impacting the cognitive thinking and and
81:53
they the teachings don’t present
81:56
themselves as if that’s what they’re
81:57
doing right they don’t present
81:59
themselves as if they’re impacting the
82:01
cognitive thinking the teachings might
82:03
say there is illusion and there is
82:05
reality and we are stuck in illusion and
82:10
so then when these shifts happen
82:12
automatically we say illusion has fallen
82:15
away and now I know reality this is
82:18
reality and the introduction of the word
82:24
in
82:24
and realities is a conceptual
82:26
distinction in order to bring a shift
82:29
from seeing life one way to seeing life
82:33
another way at some point we need to
82:35
acknowledge that what I’ve been
82:38
conditioned in a sense to call reality
82:40
to call you know this non-dual seeing is
82:46
a result we think of all conditioning
82:49
falling away or and and so then we think
82:55
it’s something absolute and it’s a great
83:00
shift forward when we realize it is as
83:03
relative as the experience of being a
83:08
person or as relative as any experience
83:14
in life it just has a completely
83:15
different qualitative feel to it so we
83:19
can have any essentially an experience
83:21
of um separateness or an experience of
83:25
oneness that – they’re both experiences
83:28
and we’ve been led to relate to one as
83:33
illusion and one as reality let’s say
83:37
and so so as not to make the error of
83:42
thinking that awareness is not
83:46
functioning through the body which often
83:52
is an error when that shift happens
83:55
because of the qualitative nature of
83:56
qualitative nature of it in order not to
83:59
make that error we have to do some
84:01
experimenting and the experimenting is
84:05
you put your hand over your eyes when
84:07
that’s happening and you’ll see that the
84:08
imagery the experience changes to
84:11
demonstrate that it’s still actually
84:13
happening through the body as the
84:15
instrument and that’s one of the
84:18
experience and then my conclusion is
84:20
that when I say conclusion can’t hold
84:24
anything absolutely but if in this life
84:27
experience someone came along and shot
84:29
this body in the head killed it while an
84:33
out-of-body experience was happening
84:36
while one
84:38
experience was happening I’m going to if
84:42
someone says well put forward your
84:45
estimation of what would happen I’d say
84:47
well that oneness experience would
84:49
collapse would end whereas the if
84:59
consciousness wasn’t functioning through
85:02
the body and we’re having this oneness
85:06
experience where we essentially know
85:08
ourself as impersonal consciousness and
85:11
in the experience is sort of like not
85:13
functioning through the body if that
85:17
really was the case if someone came and
85:19
shot this body in their head and the
85:21
body died the experience should carry on
85:23
and nothing in terms of the
85:29
investigations that we can do would
85:32
support the fact that that is what
85:33
happened this happening so we really
85:37
have to start questioning a lot of what
85:39
we take on in this spiritual process
85:43
it’s all beneficial the teachings are
85:45
there for good reason this isn’t a
85:46
criticism of the teachings it’s actually
85:49
saying teachings apply a methodology
85:52
that is the most effective to bring
85:54
about change and then the process
85:56
continues to refine such that we start
85:59
reassessing so this notion that you know
86:03
awareness the core of our being was
86:07
there before I was born and after I will
86:10
die there’s a very good reason for that
86:14
being introduced it creates a sense of
86:16
safety and relaxation in the fear of
86:20
death gets put aside in a way if we come
86:24
to believe that and it’s very important
86:31
as part of the dissolving of the belief
86:35
in personal doership and attachment to
86:36
outcome to find ourselves in a position
86:39
where we are more relaxed with life and
86:43
then at some point you question you go
86:45
is it true that this awareness that is
86:47
here now was there before I was born and
86:51
be there after I’m dead and when I was
86:56
honest with myself going to my own
86:58
experience and it has to be an awakened
87:01
experience right you can’t do this
87:02
investigation
87:03
um if certain shifts have been happy
87:07
haven’t happened but if they have then
87:09
you start saying while grounded in that
87:11
does it tell me where this awareness is
87:15
coming from am i informed of where it’s
87:19
coming from and the answer is no it
87:22
doesn’t tells me I am it tells me that’s
87:28
what it really that’s the one truth you
87:30
could say in the manifestation I am I
87:33
exist now and I thought for a long time
87:40
that the piece that sits sets in is
87:42
because I know myself as that which was
87:44
never born and will never die when I
87:47
really questioned this honestly for
87:50
myself and I came to the conclusion
87:51
while being at peace in life right so
87:55
peace in daily life had set in and then
87:58
I questioned is it true that I was never
88:00
born and will never die and they kept to
88:02
say I don’t know it doesn’t tell me that
88:04
a whole lot of concepts teaching
88:07
concepts told me that and then let’s
88:10
just assume and for me it’s very obvious
88:13
based on reading the teachings and
88:14
understanding I said this is what
88:16
certain sages when they’re talking about
88:19
self they’re resting in being and I said
88:24
so well when I rest in being I guess
88:26
it’s telling me the same as what it
88:28
would tell someone else who’s resting in
88:30
being being or self
88:33
kepta less instead of you know going
88:35
past the illusory me resting it I say I
88:39
say it doesn’t tell me that this is the
88:41
consciousness of source it doesn’t tell
88:44
me that it was there before I was born
88:46
and after and and and so I dropped those
88:51
beliefs and yet I find the piece remains
88:54
so this was great I said actually the
88:56
piece isn’t because of the fact that
88:59
this consciousness was never born and
89:01
will never die the piece is because the
89:02
consciousness is
89:05
and there’s a grounding in it awareness
89:10
of it a being it a being it as the core
89:14
of the human being so those those
89:18
non-dual awareness states which don’t
89:21
necessarily come and go they can be
89:23
there for years because and they can
89:26
become stabilized at some point even
89:28
that we come back to just being human
89:31
being the individual and if the process
89:34
is uprooted all of the ingrained beliefs
89:39
of doer ship and attachment to outcome
89:40
what rom and I would talk about as the
89:42
vasanas and the samskaras then we don’t
89:46
need to carry around beliefs and we
89:48
don’t have to have certain states we
89:50
just need to live as the human connected
89:52
to the core of our being understanding
89:55
that the flow of life is sometimes
89:56
pleasure sometimes pain understanding
89:59
that we’re going to have to as part of
90:01
the life experience endure the pain when
90:04
pain is what is delivered and enjoy
90:08
pleasure when pleasure is what and what
90:10
is delivered and then that gets to be
90:13
how we enjoy life without the
90:16
attitudinal resistance without the
90:19
hatred towards the other without the
90:21
guilt towards ourselves without the
90:22
expectation of what’s going to happen in
90:25
the future without regret of what
90:26
happened in the past and then
90:28
essentially life becomes this moment
90:31
this is all we need to deal with we wake
90:34
up in the morning with a clean slate
90:36
what happened in the past is sort of
90:38
irrelevant what’s going to happen in the
90:41
future I’ll deal with that when it’s
90:43
when it’s here yes sir hey I didn’t the
90:51
the talks are recorded so if you don’t
90:53
mind for the sake of the reporting I’m
90:55
using the microphone I’ll be great if
90:59
the green light is on you’re good to go
91:07
yes them this probably will be good I
91:10
like them just check that the green
91:13
light is on it maybe but yeah if the
91:18
green lights on it’s good oh if it’s red
91:23
it means the battery what what’s the
91:26
lights doing ok red might be as good as
91:36
you
91:49
I’m part of your club like this ah bingo
92:06
okay all right
92:12
it seems like I’m being like ramen
92:15
a’right would be an authority on this
92:18
correct would you agree
92:19
no anything that’s ever said in a
92:22
teaching is a concept and not the truth
92:26
and teachings warn us of this they tell
92:30
us this so he is what teachings ptosis
92:35
or teachings generally good example well
92:40
in this teaching for example not that
92:42
this is going to be good enough because
92:44
I’m talking from my standpoint the
92:47
teaching says whatever I say is a
92:51
concept not the truth
92:52
whatever any teaching has ever said is a
92:55
concept not the truth so that’s how it
92:58
is described in this teaching so that we
93:00
don’t end up believing
93:02
what the teaching is saying so in
93:04
Buddhism it says if you come across
93:07
Buddha on the road kill him meaning we
93:10
need to have an attitude where we have
93:12
gone past the teaching at some point not
93:16
too early you don’t to kill really you
93:18
don’t want to kill Buddha too soon but
93:21
at some point you want and so Ramana
93:23
says that in his teaching by saying use
93:24
this concept right use this thorn to
93:29
uproot the thorn that is embedded in
93:31
your thumb and then be sure to throw
93:34
both thorns away are you sure he said
93:37
that quite I know it’s the teachings
93:39
pretty well I’m not aware of that some
93:40
that phrase at all that’s attributed to
93:43
Ramakrishna but I’m not sure it’s
93:45
attribute is Rama okay hi is it a
93:48
teaching aroma no my her she in what
93:52
what book do you remember because it’s
93:54
mostly attributed to Ramakrishna I’m not
93:56
sure it’s ever been attributed to Ramana
93:58
Maharshi right I’ll check this okay and
94:01
someone else told me this too and I did
94:03
check in and it didn’t appear in the
94:04
teachings of Roman well I can um but you
94:08
don’t believe me but I’m very sure that
94:10
because it was I’m very I have a great
94:14
respect for the teaching of Rama it’s an
94:16
intimate part of of my process and so I
94:24
refer to it with respect and this was a
94:27
significant concept of ramana’s that
94:29
allowed a moving past so much Dogma
94:32
let’s say that can build up our own
94:34
dogma as a result of reading teachings a
94:37
certain way you know what I’m just
94:41
saying is that if you have any
94:42
experience correct you are describing
94:45
your experience and then you are
94:46
describing your conclusions from your
94:48
experience correct yes and you concluded
94:52
that consciousness the most you could
94:55
know was that it was in this vehicle it
94:58
was functioning through this vehicle
95:00
correct am i correct so far yes all the
95:03
experiential feedback when we look
95:04
closely indicates that it’s functioning
95:07
through a vehicle right yes but I mean
95:11
it seems like Raman are very clearly
95:15
that realization right he makes a
95:18
difference from different types of
95:21
awakenings in fact they’re described
95:23
right sahaja Samadhi nirvikalpa samadhi
95:25
and Yana Samadhi right but he said very
95:28
clearly that realization is beyond the
95:31
body mind okay that when the body goes
95:35
realization stays but he’s talking about
95:37
realization he’s not talking about an
95:40
experience of awakening prior to
95:42
realization which are important but do
95:46
not give the ultimate conclusions that
95:48
he’s pointing to would you agree with
95:51
what I’m saying um he has said a lot of
95:55
things and if you compile all the things
95:58
he said you’ll find an opposite to
96:00
everything that he’s said to one mother
96:02
so me an opposite origin what I just
96:04
said I’m not aware of Eve ever
96:05
contradicting this he said clear in fact
96:08
when he was dying right I said you guys
96:11
are so worried about this body mine do
96:13
you think I’m going anywhere I’m always
96:15
going to be here right nowhere else I
96:18
can go right so um if we intimately need
96:25
to understand the ask the question yeah
96:29
are you aware of any statement where he
96:31
contradicted what I just said which
96:33
seems to be a very powerful statement he
96:36
said about realization yes I he also
96:38
said realization is quite rare correct
96:41
sure yes I mean he was asked in a court
96:43
suit are there any other people like you
96:46
that you know of and he said no right
96:49
and they then they asked him have there
96:51
ever been any others like you he said a
96:54
couple he named a couple from the
96:56
ancient Tamil history right so he’s
96:58
talking from what I would call the
97:01
position of authority a very rare but
97:04
potential in every one of us what is
97:07
called divine self realization and I’m
97:10
not aware of him ever contradicting the
97:12
fact that consciousness is primary for
97:16
example when he would look at the world
97:18
one time they were doing some work
97:21
inside the ashram they set him up with a
97:23
tent outside and he was just sitting
97:24
gazing right and they asked him what are
97:27
you gazing at
97:28
and he said what do you think I’m gazing
97:30
at I’m gazing at myself okay there is
97:34
only this one reality which is
97:36
consciousness and it goes beyond the
97:40
body mind in ultimate realization he was
97:42
very clear about this he’s never
97:44
contradicted this statement and I know
97:46
his teachings fairly well so I’m just
97:50
playing the devil’s advocate you agreed
97:51
to having a conversation with me you
97:55
know and I’m willing to listen but you
97:57
know first start by telling me where he
97:59
contradicted what I just said um there’s
98:01
a quote of Ramona’s I think you’ll find
98:04
it’s verse 6 of the 46 expositions of
98:08
reality where he says that life is a
98:14
result of the senses and therefore all
98:21
there is his mind the implication of
98:26
that if you look at it is that our
98:29
experience of life and life is a result
98:34
of the senses and the senses are part of
98:39
the body and therefore the experience of
98:47
life is the experience of mind and so in
98:52
that case what he’s implying his mind is
98:55
linked and intimately one with the body
99:02
right then who is he speaking to there
99:07
he’s speaking to people who are on the
99:10
spiritual path he’s talking to them they
99:13
are not realized right he’s saying this
99:15
is your experience right this is your
99:18
experience this is how the life is
99:20
generated through the mechanism of the
99:22
body mind and yes awareness and the mind
99:26
are connected to it right but he’s
99:29
saying you know when he talks from the
99:32
state of realization he goes far far
99:35
beyond that and he said that ultimately
99:39
the consciousness
99:41
is independent or is the substratum of
99:44
the body mind the body mind is arising
99:47
in the field of consciousness the whole
99:48
world is arising in the field of
99:51
consciousness and now this is a
99:53
statement for realizers but I think that
99:57
he’s probably had the authority to make
99:59
such statements and they’re like a
100:00
guideposts for us right so perhaps your
100:03
experience was the bench is considering
100:11
I’m saying if your experience was not
100:14
the type of realization that he’s
100:15
talking about I mean for example he said
100:18
that you looked at your hands right well
100:21
ramen that never said that the objects
100:24
of perception didn’t arise but he said
100:27
in realization the objects of perception
100:28
are known as consciousness it’s not an
100:32
internal state it’s external you know
100:36
like he often commented about the three
100:38
maha vaakya is right the world is an
100:41
illusion Brahman alone is real right I
100:43
am Brahman and then he said in
100:45
realization the world is Brahman
100:48
he said but this is a statement from
100:50
realizers but he definitely said that is
100:53
the state of realization so when you
100:56
looked at your hands and you closed your
100:58
eyes where your hands recognized as
101:00
consciousness you’re getting a little
101:04
confused I said I put my hands over my
101:06
eyes right and the image changed right
101:11
what it indicates is that the experience
101:15
that is the experience that’s described
101:18
as the the shift where consciousness is
101:23
known an awareness of awareness by
101:27
itself appears one way and then is
101:33
confirmed to be something different so
101:35
we have the paradox which is you know
101:37
life is paradox and so if we take one
101:41
versus the paradox right there for the
101:44
realizer rahmanir was very clear on this
101:46
all the normal experiences appear but
101:50
they are recognized for what they are
101:52
the risings and consciousness so
101:55
consciousness itself not arising in
101:57
consciousness
101:58
sure so let’s okay let’s look at it
102:01
because what you bring up is important
102:03
to look at a lot of the teachings that
102:08
are pointing at this and doing so
102:10
because a recognition of lost in the
102:17
woods took all right is it came to term
102:19
anomaly I have an affinity towards to be
102:22
a great devotee but I’m pretty pretty
102:24
clear on his teachings and I think he’s
102:26
our legitimate Authority let’s just stay
102:28
with him okay what can we do that yes
102:31
all right
102:32
he’s his main teaching is the
102:36
realization of self and that will come
102:39
about if we ask ourselves Who am I right
102:43
that’s his teaching what is the teaching
102:47
therefore in order for the self to be
102:49
realized right right
102:51
a movement away from knowing oneself is
102:54
what he would refer to as self with a
102:55
small s which is essentially a belief
102:58
system of who we are to a realization of
103:02
what we are when that belief system
103:05
falls away what the core of the human
103:07
being is or what what self is
103:10
consciousness or awareness yes so we can
103:14
agree that a recognition of self is
103:19
paramount when it comes to liberation or
103:22
self-realization yes yes so when a
103:26
teaching including Rama’s teaching so
103:29
the teaching that the part of the
103:30
teaching that you’ve put forward now is
103:34
a methodology a description that will
103:39
turn awareness in on itself
103:44
it’s a methodology that describes
103:49
experience of life right which is all we
103:52
ever have experience as something very
103:56
particular something it describes it
103:58
very specifically and I agree that
104:03
experience of life is an arising in
104:05
conscious
104:06
not separate from the consciousness in
104:09
which it arises right not that there is
104:11
object and consciousnesses two they are
104:17
interdependent and we could say
104:20
consciousness is all-pervading of
104:22
experience so in order for us to waken
104:27
awaken realize the self we really need
104:31
to become focused on experience itself
104:35
the nature of life on life experience
104:39
and so what he’s doing there is pointing
104:44
at the fact that if we look at our
104:46
experience
104:47
if we look at life itself life never
104:51
arises independent of awareness meaning
104:58
that the whole the whole experience of
105:03
life exactly what you said is
105:08
interdependent on consciousness so if
105:12
we’re looking for consciousness outside
105:15
in a world outside if our mind is
105:17
directed to finding it outside it’s
105:20
never going to find it it’s going to be
105:24
looking for something that is actually
105:25
right here looking out there so the
105:27
teaching that is put forward what you
105:30
put forth is something that is directing
105:32
us to look at the experience of life in
105:37
order for the background of experience
105:39
what you refer to as a substratum of
105:42
experience to become self evident now
105:46
the question is is that realized is that
105:52
is that liberation is that enlightenment
105:55
I call that I would say that’s awakening
105:58
and the Scriptures tell us don’t
106:02
misunderstand or don’t mistake
106:04
understanding for awakening and don’t
106:07
mistake awakening for liberation now in
106:11
awakening I would say realization or
106:13
awakening the same thing so awakening is
106:18
the realization of
106:21
self-sow don’t mistake understanding
106:24
which is an intellectual understanding
106:27
for the actual realization the awakening
106:30
to self right and don’t mistake the
106:34
awakening to self as liberation so what
106:38
is liberation liberation to me is the
106:42
end of suffering that comes after the
106:46
realization of self has been integrated
106:48
into daily living as a human being
106:52
now we could debate all sorts of things
106:56
because what I’m putting throw up the
106:58
only thing I was asking was your
107:00
statement that if someone shot you cut
107:04
the holes consciousness thing would just
107:06
go to a singularity to zip right and I’m
107:10
saying that ramen affair he clearly said
107:12
that’s not so okay it’s just not so
107:16
especially in the state of realization
107:18
this state is never lost
107:20
okay and that’s why even that you know
107:24
you you look at the traditional way the
107:27
Hindu scripture the Hindu cosmology
107:28
works the body doesn’t arise first
107:31
consciousness arises first then the ego
107:35
then the mind then the senses and then
107:39
the body that’s the only way that
107:41
ultimate liberation can arise right if
107:44
it I mean otherwise when you’re dead
107:46
you’re dead right I mean do you think
107:48
when you’re dead you’re dead spot on
107:51
spot on right absolutely
107:53
okay well let me ask you let me just
107:55
play the devil’s advocate a bit here
107:56
more you don’t mind this or you’ve done
107:58
the obnoxious because I’m kind of
108:00
enjoying it good go ahead
108:03
the only problem is that we have a time
108:06
limit to get out of the room which were
108:07
five minutes over but oh yeah I
108:09
appreciate this sort of questioning
108:12
which is a shame because which is a
108:13
generation realize it exists right used
108:17
to be able to point us all along the
108:20
path okay where is this awakening right
108:24
you know as this awakening achieved its
108:27
ultimate status where it becomes
108:29
realization divine self realization
108:32
so just I mean don’t take this the wrong
108:35
way but one of the very clear things he
108:37
said even before final self-realization
108:40
is that this status of ultimate
108:43
consciousness would shine through in
108:46
deep sleep in dreaming is that your your
108:48
experience I’ve very clearly had
108:51
experiences no but I’m saying he would
108:53
be taught he said it would be 24/7 all
108:56
right this is a very clear you know you
108:59
can find it in Morgan ARS poetry he said
109:01
it very clearly to Walter tears a
109:03
Dutchman this is a signpost before
109:07
ultimate realization that 24/7
109:10
consciousness will be the experience and
109:12
that includes deep sleep and dreaming so
109:15
I’m just asking you is this your
109:16
experience I’m not going to answer the
109:18
question because um what you need to
109:21
realize is this more fundamental point
109:24
that whatever is said in a teaching is
109:26
not the truth so if you relate to what
109:29
is said in the teaching as if it’s true
109:31
no I just said I just wanted to play the
109:32
devil’s advocate all right we’re having
109:34
a conversation so what is the problem
109:36
with just answering the question alright
109:38
so you know I mean it’s like I’m asking
109:39
you if you brush your teeth in the
109:40
morning okay it’s just a simple question
109:42
so the question is that you brush your
109:46
teeth in the morning correct yes I do
109:48
okay so just answer the question okay
109:50
24/7 including and deep sleep and
109:52
dreaming is the is the substratum
109:54
consciousness your experience not your
109:57
not some into let me like what you call
109:59
a concept not a concept but is it your
110:02
24/7 realization experience it’s it’s a
110:06
24/7 realization in the waking state in
110:09
dreams dream state and in sleep in deep
110:14
sleep according to my definition of deep
110:16
sleep awareness falls away that’s
110:27
because he’s got a different definition
110:29
of deep sleep
110:30
this definition of deep sleep is my
110:33
definition of sleep no but he said in
110:37
the case of the realizer what he’s
110:40
pointing out is that there is a fourth
110:42
state to the three states yeah
110:45
the case of the real-life sir this is
110:46
the constant experience throughout the
110:48
three states okay in in so from the
110:52
point of view of you with your ask your
110:55
question from the point of view of the
110:57
way you’re answering the question my
110:58
answer is yes so it’s your constant
111:01
experience correct everyone should have
111:05
such problems very good it’s not the
111:14
consciousness I’m not making any claims
111:16
about consciousness what I’m saying is
111:18
that when there is a realization and a
111:20
grounding into the consciousness it
111:22
doesn’t tell us so many things that are
111:25
put forward in teachings and yet I have
111:28
no problem putting them forward as a
111:29
teaching just like if if we’re being
111:33
chased by a group of angry thugs and
111:36
we’re coming up to a very narrow bridge
111:39
that is 300 meters above a ravine and
111:44
I’m running with my girlfriend and I
111:47
know she’s afraid of heights I’m going
111:49
to look at her and say look we’re coming
111:51
up to a bridge and there’s mud on either
111:54
side of it and if we fall in it’s gonna
111:55
be a problem so you come and you look at
111:57
me and we go across right and you don’t
112:00
look down at the mud because we’ve got
112:02
to get across this bridge it’s this wide
112:04
and it’s easy when we’re running
112:06
normally would easily run across it
112:08
right but if we fall into the mud we’ve
112:10
got all sorts of problems so we’re
112:12
running and we get across the other side
112:13
no problems then she looks down and
112:16
freaks out now and she said you lied to
112:19
me I said I did what was necessary in
112:23
order for us to get where we needed to
112:25
go and teachings exactly the same as
112:29
that there are methodology and within
112:31
the methodology they warned us
112:34
enlightened masters on their deathbeds
112:37
have apologized to us and said please
112:39
don’t believe what I have said it’s a
112:44
fundamental realization that leads to
112:47
realization because in the end we could
112:50
say that liberation is the liberation
112:52
from belief the problem is
112:56
when
112:58
certain concepts exist in our system and
113:01
they are related to us absolutely true
113:03
and if we hold certain concepts about
113:07
what enlightenment is as absolutely true
113:10
they become an expectation and we may
113:12
actually miss the liberation that is
113:15
right in front of us and those teachings
113:19
themselves tell us this in different
113:24
ways and so the thorn use this thorn to
113:28
remove that thorn is essentially Ramna
113:31
saying I don’t believe I don’t expect
113:33
that you will throw the second thorn
113:35
away what it’s saying is I know the
113:39
second thorn the concept of spiritual
113:41
concept that was used to uproot this
113:44
concept so for example in Nyssa
113:46
goddesses teaching says you are not the
113:48
body only to uproot the belief that you
113:53
are the body so you are not the body it
113:57
uproots that belief then it becomes the
113:59
newly embedded salon where we have a
114:01
belief I am NOT to the body and the
114:05
warning is don’t believe what I’ve told
114:07
you that – needs to be liberated and
114:11
then we’re left with the experience
114:15
which happens to be oh I am a body and
114:19
I’m a body with consciousness and when
114:22
there’s nothing to do the working mind
114:26
falls away and an openness it happens
114:28
where I know myself as the self in which
114:30
everything arises and then I go on and I
114:34
move through life and I function as a
114:36
human being and so there is this
114:38
beautiful movement between knowing
114:41
myself as nothing and as everything and
114:44
as the human being it’s so just one less
114:51
thing I guess we do run out of time but
114:52
just to catch you again you said these
114:55
teachers say on their deathbed don’t
114:57
believe what I told you or something
114:58
like that correct but I would say that
115:01
what rahmanir said is don’t believe what
115:04
I tell you realize what I tell you
115:06
mm-hmm
115:07
exactly and then when you’ve realized it
115:10
right you then have the opportunity to
115:13
rest in the self that is none and then
115:19
you can ask yourself what it tells you
115:22
what it confirms to you how can you
115:46
report after day that there’s still
115:48
consciousness you know like while we’ll
115:51
be reporting you know like yeah after
115:54
that you you are consciousness and after
115:56
that what will report even that you know
115:59
after death you know what I’m saying
116:01
here yes yeah so theoretically we can I
116:07
I agree there is who is there to tell
116:10
you to say I am consciousness once the
116:13
body has died is what you’re saying
116:14
but the gentleman’s point I guess is
116:18
that from a realized state we will know
116:22
certain things or at least that’s the
116:25
interpretation of the teachings that the
116:27
teachings are telling us what is
116:29
absolutely known and my suggestion is
116:31
that one of the freedoms is to realize
116:35
that we don’t know we won’t know even in
116:39
a realized state at least and and so
116:42
this is an important point is that for
116:46
me it’s not really about am i reaiiy I
116:48
don’t know if I had the same realization
116:51
as Rama no that’s not important to me so
116:54
much I know that I read the teachings
116:55
and they all a beautiful poetry that I
116:59
can completely relate to what is
117:02
important to me is the fact that
117:04
suffering in daily living has fallen
117:06
away and that’s why these teachings
117:10
approach the subject from a practical
117:12
point of view and the practical point of
117:14
view and we look at it is what is
117:15
available after enlightenment and we’re
117:18
just using this word in the teaching for
117:20
the sake of
117:20
what’s available after enlightenment
117:22
that wasn’t there before what will I
117:25
have after enlightenment that I didn’t
117:27
have before
117:28
so this teachings is what is available
117:31
is the end of suffering the end of an
117:34
uncomfortableness with oneself and
117:36
uncomfortableness with the other and
117:37
ultimately the end of the fear of death
117:40
which is what then allows us to live
117:43
fully and so as far as I’m concerned
117:47
once the suffering came to an end
117:49
seeking ended and when seeking in the
117:52
experience my own experience not because
117:55
anyone said is this is what is available
117:58
this is all I was ever looking for to
118:01
live life as Roger in whatever situation
118:05
I find myself in at peace with that
118:10
situation and so this I guess shift or
118:15
change which to me is simply a evolution
118:18
of the human being an optimization of
118:20
the the of humaneness
118:31
well let’s leave it at that
118:40
thank you and thank you for your
118:42
questions because it’s not every day we
118:44
get um challenging questions and I think
118:48
they help elaborate the teaching and
118:51
also as I say it is all a concept so
118:55
take which parts of it resonate and the
118:59
rest of it can be left on the roadside