01-18-2019 Roger Castillo – The person witnesses the person

00:40
so at the beginning of the talks I
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generally start off by pointing out that
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what we talk about is something very
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specific there’s many ways of pointing
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at this and it’s not really only just
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pointing but it’s part of a methodology
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part of a process of change and what we
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speak about in practical terms is
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happiness for the human being in daily
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living and if we’re really honest if we
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have the good fortune of our attention
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really coming into the present moment
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and becoming more and more familiar with
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our life experience we will at some
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point come to the first-hand realization
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actually all I’m really looking for when
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I go past all of the theories past all
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of the concepts that I might have taken
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on what I’m really craving is for
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happiness but it’s very important that
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we define this happiness correctly so
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the realization is that actually I’m
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looking for the happiness that isn’t
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happiness in the form of outcomes with
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all received outcomes they’re nice while
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they’re there and then they fade away
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and even when we get the most intense
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pleasure when we get that which we are
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craving the most in a circumstantial
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form so we might get the best job
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promotion we might find the perfect
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partner and we find in practice that
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that doesn’t actually deliver ongoing
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happiness and so once we’ve realized
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that isn’t a happiness that is available
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on a continuous unbroken basis the flow
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of life is pleasure sometimes and pain
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at others and that receiving pleasure
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doesn’t give me
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a consistent happiness when we realize
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that the happiness that is available on
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a consistent basis is happiness through
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peace of mind and that peace of mind and
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practical terms just means the absence
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the falling away the end of something
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when we look at it we see that actually
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it’s the end of an uncomfortable
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relationship with oneself an
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uncomfortable relationship to the other
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when I say relationship it’s of means
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attitude towards oneself so the end of
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an uncomfortable attitude towards
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oneself and the end of an uncomfortable
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attitude towards the other the end of an
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uncomfortable attitude towards the
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ever-changing circumstance in life so in
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practical terms what we’re really
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looking for is the end of something and
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I’d hazard a guess at saying that
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everyone in here has their own
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experience that if the working mind the
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intellect the honed intellect the wisdom
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side of the intellect if that is
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directed to look will confirm this for
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ourself but yes I’ve had those periods
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where I can put my hand on my heart and
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say in this moment I’m happy and if we
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find that we can say this in a moment
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when our circumstance isn’t particularly
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different from what it generally is will
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realize that however actually I can say
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I’m happy because there’s the absence of
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unhappiness that’s really when I can say
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I’m happy when the unhappiness that is
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sometimes regularly there for depending
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on different people when that’s fallen
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away and so it’s very important for us
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to start really looking at our
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experience so that we can come to an
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understanding of what it is we’re really
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looking for what it is it’s really of
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not just through concept that we take on
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and believe but from our own
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investigation and so on the converse of
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this the converse being when I when I
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can say I’m happy in a particular moment
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I can look and see and say I actually
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I’m happy not because circumstance is
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particularly different from no but
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because there’s nothing disturbing the
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experience so we could say that my
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natural state is peace of mind when
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there isn’t a disturbance so we come to
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know what happiness is and then on those
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moments when we can put our hand on our
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heart and say in this moment I’m not
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happy you know from experience and when
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we look at it and we’ll say only see so
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what is it that’s happening in this
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moment when I can put my hand on my
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heart and firmly say I am NOT happy in
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this moment and the suggestion is if we
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look closely if we’re interested with
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our judgment and just curious to know
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what our unhappiness is we’ll find that
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in general terms it’s an
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uncomfortableness with one soul for the
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other or an uncomfortableness with life
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and when we look at it more closely
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we’ll find it arises in different forms
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like guilt and uncomfortableness with
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one’s self blame and uncomfortableness
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with the other pride which is another
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form of uncomfortableness less intense
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than the other two I’ve mentioned or
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attachment to outcomes wanting life to
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be a certain way expecting life in the
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future to look a certain way and and/or
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worry and anxiety so there’s all of
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these different forms of
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uncomfortableness with oneself and with
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life and then when we look even closer
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at these different forms we find that at
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first it seems like the problem is
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circumstance I think the problem is that
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the the fact the other didn’t do what I
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would like them to have done or that my
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actions led to a bad outcome and I think
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that that’s the problem that there was a
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bad outcome that the other didn’t
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function though when we look more
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closely we see actually the
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uncomfortable
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is not the circumstance itself but
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rather our attitude to the circumstance
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how we’re interpreting what has happened
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[Music] 09:06
and what we find is if a change happened
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such that our attitude to the
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circumstance is not an attitude of
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resistance basically a deep
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understanding that circumstance is going
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to be what it’s going to be then we find
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Wow my uncomfortableness my own
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happiness isn’t circumstantial its
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attitudinal and that when the attitude
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of resistance falls away we’re connected
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to ourself on a continuous basis we know
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ourself in a way independent of
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circumstance we’re never really
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independent of circumstance at all
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arises together but we find that there
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is an equanimity which means a peace a
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connection to oneself independent of
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circumstance
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[Music] 10:26
and life’s always giving us opportunity
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to see this
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so for the thinking the working mind to
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become conditioned in a way that allows
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us to start seeing our landscape more
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clearly our inner landscape in
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particular more clearly especially
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relative to this topic of what are we
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really looking for relative to this
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topic of human happiness then to the
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extent that the working mind becomes
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becomes conditioned to see this we start
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to see dynamics that maybe weren’t seen
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before both those that are described as
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in line with actuality and those
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attitudinal dynamics that are out of
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line with the working of actuality and
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as we see those movements of mind that
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essentially are a story about life based
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on a misinterpret interpretation of the
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functioning we start to see other this
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is the error this is the illusion that
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we have about life and as that illusion
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that false belief is seen in action then
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that itself is the beginning of the
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dissolving of that
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so what is the false belief that turns
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into the resistance to life because at
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the end of the day what I’m suggesting
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is that human happiness is available the
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human happiness that’s available is
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happiness through peace of mind peace of
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mind is the absence of suffering the
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falling away the non arising of
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suffering and that suffering is always
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attitudinal and not circumstantial and
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that the attitude that leads to
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suffering is based on a false belief of
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who we are and what life is which is
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really good news a false belief of who
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we are and what life is that’s why
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suffering can come to an end because it
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simply requires the false belief to be
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understood to be false
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it requires the false belief to be seen
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to be inaccurate telling a false story
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and it’s only then that the momentum the
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power that that belief has contained
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within it starts to be extracted out of
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it and it atrophies for as long as that
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movement is allowed to continue and seen
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as accurate
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it doesn’t atrophy
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so what is the belief at the core of the
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attitude that results in suffering and
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suffering in practical terms guilt blame
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and pride let’s look at the first half
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so the core of the belief at the base
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that enables this attitude of
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uncomfortableness in the form of guilt
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blame and pride to rise is the belief
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that I and everyone else are separate
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independent entities in control of
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everything that happens through us
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including and especially our thinking
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our feeling our emotions and our actions
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now what I mean by a belief is when we
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think when we act when we speak we
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interpret that we see it as me doing all
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of that and the me that we see that we
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imagine doing it all is a me that
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actually doesn’t exist a me that is
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imagined to be separate and independent
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from the rest of life autonomous is one
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of the words we could use in the English
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language autonomous means insulated
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independent self existing and so then we
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have this idea of ourselves this self
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image of who we are that really doesn’t
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exist so a false self idea and that
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false self idea has a great power it has
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a power to obstruct true self
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and our true self is not in opposition
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to however life arises so it doesn’t
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fight the false belief it remains in the
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background allowing that to be part of
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life while that is part of life the
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experience the human has is one of
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uncomfortableness because that false
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belief of who we are has to feel
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uncomfortable with life because at that
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well firstly if we believe ourselves to
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be different from what we actually are
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we’re bound to have to miss out of the
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path miss out on the comfortableness of
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knowing ourselves so we’re forced to
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feel uncomfortable and uncomfortable
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because of a disconnection from
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ourselves and the second part of the
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false belief of who we are is that we
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believe ourselves to be an entity that
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requires things to happen in the future
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basically pleasure and circumstance to
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happen a certain way in order for me to
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be complete and so with that idea of
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ourselves we’re forced to continually
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seek outward to continually try to
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control the uncontrollable continually
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expecting life to look a particular way
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we’re invested in that because it’s
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become part of our identity part of who
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we believe we are and therefore what we
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think we need to be complete and
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therefore where all our attention and
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effort is going to go now these deeply
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ingrained beliefs can be seen to be
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there by us observing the movements and
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reactions we have to life
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so if the working mind has become
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conditioned to at least intellectually
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at first understand that at least the
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description that’s been given is there
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is this false identity in place and that
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the way that we can confirm this false
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identity being there or at least this
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identity veena is to see the way we
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react to life the way we function in
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life we just need to look at our
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movement towards pleasure pleasure
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pleasure in the future we just need to
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see a attitudinal resistance when life
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doesn’t turn out in line with our
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preferences and this will start to give
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us irrefutable evidence that says based
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on an observation of my thought systems
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my thought patterns I must have this
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belief about Who I am an example is when
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an internal psychological resistance to
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life being not our ideal so when life
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turns out to deliver pain rather than
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pleasure and this resistance in the form
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of blaming the other foreign there’s
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resistance in insisting it shouldn’t be
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like this something has gone
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fundamentally wrong for life to have
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delivered this pain to me if we see this
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we say wow there must be this belief
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system in place because otherwise where
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with this movement be coming from
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so essentially this identity is saying
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what I am is a separate independent
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entity and I need all of these things in
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life in order to be complete and we’ve
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been told by many many spiritual
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traditions that we’ve forgotten who we
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are that we’ve become hypnotized
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identified sometimes is the word that is
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used identified with what we’re not and
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that that forgetting we ready to fight
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the monkeys that forgetting leads to an
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uncomfortableness and that liberation
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comes from knowing oneself remembering
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oneself so I’m just putting it into
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maybe more practical terms so not better
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because actually practical is not always
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what is needed but if we can start to
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see that these things are pointed at
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from different angles but they’re really
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pointing at the same thing and if we can
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come to understand oh wow is that what
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that teaching was talking about it’s
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talking about something practical and
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we’ve forgotten ourselves because we’ve
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come to believe ourselves to be
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something that we’re not and how is it
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that we’ve come to believe this it’s not
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of our own doing the belief was put in
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place because the principal putting
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being put forward is we’ve come to
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believe ourself to be the doer to be a
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separate independent entity that is
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responsible for how we turn out is
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responsible for how life turns out and
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so when this belief is in place and we
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hear that there is an error in place
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a full site where the belief
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automatically says what I must have done
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that the suggestion the concept that’s
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being put forward is we are not the
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doers that is the one of the
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realizations that allows us to connect
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back into ourselves
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we are part of life never separate from
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the amazing unfolding of life which is
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much much bigger than just you or I and
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just my life in just your life it’s like
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like a big wave of evolution you could
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say and we’re always at the cusp of that
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wave which is turning into the next
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moment and the cusp of the wave is a
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result of everything that came before
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you in innumerable factors that we can
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never know we don’t know everything that
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has come before but we can see that what
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is here now as a result of everything
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before so our beliefs that are in place
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are not our doing they’re a result of
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life life has put them in place
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this is the principle of non doer ship
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to see that what is in place is in place
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we could say it is in what I am the
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human being but then we also see it but
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what I am is not my doing I didn’t
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create myself I am a result of life up
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to this point in time and at each moment
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life is delivering new conditioning as
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part of the unfolding of life and I’m
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changing and so the change is not my
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doing the change is just part of the
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unfolding can you pass the microphone
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back
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[Music] 24:58
when it’s in the air it is this is why
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always arises but why
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you know cup and soft in the you know in
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a when when I’m able to see that that
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everything is perfect that there’s no
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wrongness and all that and no Romans and
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why he ever like why why all these
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confusion why the illusion why at the
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same time like deliver the clarity
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Paraguay at the same time in solution or
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the completion of happening you know
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yeah why not
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yes I go wine why not from from whose
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perspective
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so let me say from the perspective where
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we were attached to pleasure pleasure
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pleasure
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the unfortunate nacelle I why this why
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not pleasure pleasure pleasure who if an
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understanding comes in and says actually
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life is on one level duality
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interconnected opposites pleasure and
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pain that is the painting that is the
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masterpiece that has been created in
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this manifestation it’s a manifestation
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of interconnected opposites duality so
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it’s like looking at a painting in a
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museum that is I don’t know the genres
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but let’s say or a movie or horror movie
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and saying why um a horror movie right
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if you see it from outside and you see
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well that’s a very valid creation a very
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valid expression of the potentiality a
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very valid form of art it might not be
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someone’s preference but we can see the
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validity of it and so if we come to see
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that this life is interconnected
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opposites like not it doesn’t matter
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what we would like we just see this
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manifestation is health and disease
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wealth and poverty good and bad male and
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female big and small hot and cold it has
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to be it’s created it’s a time-space
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continuum of duality on the experiential
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level and the duality isn’t an illusion
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on the experience experiential level if
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our psychological attachment falls away
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we still have a biological entity and
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the biological entity without us even if
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we don’t label something as pleasurable
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or painful the biological will still
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feel either pleasure or pain hmm so even
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when our misunderstanding falls away
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life continues to be an experience of
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interconnected opposites
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sometimes pleasure sometimes pain so
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given that’s the case that even once our
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misunderstanding falls away life
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continues to be duality on a level then
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we say aha this is the nature of life
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and so then hard as it might be for us
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to accept the question why falls away so
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if you ask me why my answer is because
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life is a creation of interconnected
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opposites might not be acceptable to you
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but it’s the description and as our
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attachment to outcomes falls away it
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becomes so much more acceptable so what
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that means is once the attachment to
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outcomes falls away and we find that
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there is a piece a comfortableness with
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oneself even in the face of pleasure and
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pain then the explanation that life is
30:26
includes atrocities because there are
30:29
great acts of kindness then that
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explanation becomes more and more
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acceptable because we find that we know
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our self independent of outcomes so we
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can remain connected and at peace
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knowing ourself at peace even when life
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is going to be sometimes pleasure and
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sometimes pain when the attachment to
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outcome is there it’s much harder to
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accept that life is sometimes pain
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because that with the attachment to
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outcome in place means that’s an attack
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on myself and so we can’t accept that
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life is an attack on what I believe
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myself to be so we don’t want to accept
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the fact that life is always going to be
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pleasure and pain and we try to imagine
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that we can make life pleasure pleasure
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pleasure pleasure if we work hard enough
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we can make life pleasure pleasure
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pleasure pleasure and it isn’t going to
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be that but even with life being at the
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nature of the flow of life sometimes
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pleasure and sometimes pain the good
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news is when we drop out of the false
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idea of who we are and connect to a part
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of ourself that is the core of the human
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being we find that peace nonetheless is
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available on a continuous basis even
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given the explanation I’ve put forward
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of the nature of the flow of life
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so next time you ask why you can give
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yourself the answer because if the
32:24
merino hello Ichigo hi I kind of find
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myself you know like this observing part
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or this accepting or whatever you know
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you you would want to call it but that
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part that is at peace with itself no
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matter what the circumstances I sort of
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you know know that part and it’s kind of
32:50
always there but the question is why
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were and very much with the integral
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since I don’t have an outer one and I’m
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not really too much into searching for
33:02
one either and so I have the impression
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that sometimes the outer circumstances
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sort of test me maybe it’s just my
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impression but I wonder whether you
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would share what you think about you
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know like cosmic testings or whatever
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you know because like that way I see
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where I’m getting stronger I went there
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still work to do
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well because the thing that we’re
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intuitively moving away from which is an
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uncomfortableness with our self the
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arising of suffering because that’s what
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we’re intuitively moving away from and
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because our suffering is always
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attitudinal to circumstance meaning
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where we see a circumstance and we judge
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it as being appropriate or inappropriate
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we see the action of the other and we
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say you should or shouldn’t have acted
34:00
that way so or we have an expectation of
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how life should look which is not
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circumstance but our attitude to the
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future let’s say then so it means that
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it’s in a way directly linked
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just circumstance meaning that when
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circumstance arises our attitude to the
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circumstance is either going to deliver
34:30
peace because it will be an attitude of
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allowing of not resisting or it’s going
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to be an attitude of resistance one or
34:42
the other and so when the circumstance
34:47
is a certain way and our attitude is a
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certain way what arises is suffering and
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then if life has developed and us enough
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to be able to say well actually what I’m
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moving away from the natural movement is
35:05
a movement to less suffering a movement
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when suffering diminishes then you could
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say that life is always in a sense
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aiding us or testing us
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yes it’s pushing and yes it’s it’s
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driving us it’s giving us opportunity to
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see past the blocks that are still
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allowing suffering to arise at at some
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point life tests you by and not only
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tests at that point but confirms in you
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that the job is done because at some
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point life throws painful situations at
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you and you’re surprised that the
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situation painful not what you would
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like you miss your aeroplane someone you
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love dies someone you love betrays you
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or lets you down and you’re surprised
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that there’s no resistance to that you
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feel the pain no resistance and you
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think wow that and then the next time it
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happens that pain and life delivers pain
36:16
you find that there is a natural
36:19
okayness with it and you realize that
36:22
the okayness is just the absence of them
36:25
previously they’re not okayness yeah but
36:31
and
36:31
I sort of had the impression that
36:33
detesting yet like first they tickle you
36:36
a little bit and then they come out and
36:37
sometimes punchy okay and I wondered
36:41
whether there is some point like when
36:45
you’re fully realize being if there is
36:46
such thing as a fully realized being or
36:49
maybe maybe there’s not maybe like sort
36:52
of always on the path and this kind of
36:54
thing always will happen but I have the
36:58
impression that you know that versus a
37:00
little tickle and it’s a poking and then
37:02
it’s like II don’t take this are you
37:04
gonna go with that and do you have the
37:08
impression like did that happen to you
37:10
um I mean I’ve always said I’ve had a
37:14
very easy life I think I say that
37:17
because luckily the suffering wasn’t
37:19
there and I tend to overlook the fairly
37:23
challenging circumstances that actually
37:25
were there but in experience they didn’t
37:28
feel that challenging because the
37:30
attitude was one that didn’t um
37:32
arise in a very resisting way so I used
37:36
to think actually I can’t really answer
37:38
that question because I’ve had a very
37:40
fortunate life and I have relative to a
37:45
lot of life circumstance that you see
37:48
how they then I mean I’ve thought about
37:49
it I said no actually I’ve had more than
37:51
my not more than my I’ve had my fair
37:53
share of fairly intense circumstance and
37:57
I’d look at it and I actually I there
37:58
wasn’t a resistance arising there so if
38:03
I speak from my experience I would say
38:05
that the change that is available is a
38:07
an in-principle change and that it can
38:13
be that the suffering regardless of the
38:17
intensity of the circumstance can be
38:20
completely absent and at first that’s
38:23
not going to be the case at first we can
38:25
find ourselves at peace with the smaller
38:28
challenges but as the misunderstanding
38:32
gets less and less then we find that
38:36
even when big challenges come in the
38:38
attitude remains one of quietness and so
38:43
another way of putting this is that
38:46
if we find ourselves being able to be
38:50
more at peace with the smaller
38:52
inconveniences in life that previously
38:54
we weren’t which means there’s a change
38:58
that you know a change from resisting
39:02
the small inconveniences to being a
39:04
piece with the small inconveniences so
39:06
on that would say well why can’t that
39:08
change continue why can’t that the
39:13
change that’s on that trajectory of more
39:15
peace continuing so if we say well
39:18
logically it could continue and could
39:20
deepen it could become more and more
39:24
known whatever it is that’s known that
39:27
leads to being able to not resist as
39:30
that goes deeper and deeper we can
39:33
conclude actually I don’t see why we
39:37
can’t get to a stage where we simply
39:40
don’t suffer I believe that the process
39:45
not believe really see that the process
39:48
doesn’t have an end
39:50
hmm the process is an ongoing process
39:53
there will always be new levels of
39:56
change that happen but as far as the
39:59
suffering goes I think that suffering
40:02
can end along the greater process
40:05
there’s a point where suffering ends the
40:08
process the process continues but if
40:11
someone says is it your experience that
40:14
suffering can end completely I say yes
40:16
for many years okay so you just sit
40:20
there and go like oh yeah what the
40:24
yeah internally we just realize that the
40:29
uncomfortableness that used to arise no
40:31
longer arises yeah okay I feel that too
40:35
hmm that’s a great gift thank you and
40:40
gift from life well I work for it too
40:43
indeed we find that there is a process
40:47
but when we really look at it we say wow
40:49
I was so lucky to be designed such that
40:53
the motivation to do this
40:55
work arose so even that we can be
40:59
grateful for the fact that the impetus
41:03
to meditate the impetus to read certain
41:06
books the impetus to travel to places
41:09
was inserted in us in a sense my life so
41:13
that’s the paradox where yes effort
41:16
needs to be made but at some point we
41:19
find that that effort happened through
41:22
this body but maybe it’s not as much my
41:27
effort as the thinking mind wants to
41:29
claim so we can hold on to this is why
41:32
if someone says do I need to make any
41:33
effort in this process if it’s clearly
41:37
seen that someone is making effort from
41:40
a personal do a ship standpoint like I
41:43
will get this I will make it happen I’m
41:45
going to meditate for three and a half
41:47
hours a day starting at 6 o’clock on the
41:49
dot and I’m going to become the best
41:51
meditator then you’d say to that person
41:55
you can’t make it happen no matter how
41:58
much effort you put into it it’s not
42:01
going to be your doing in fact you as
42:04
the doer are part of the problem so
42:09
allow the process to happen
42:12
understanding it takes no personal
42:16
effort yeah I can sort of feel like the
42:19
effort falls away more and more and
42:21
things just sort of tend to manifest
42:23
mm-hmm and sometimes I don’t like them a
42:27
lot but I like I feel like then yeah I
42:30
feel a sort of the effort there’s not
42:33
much effort anymore yeah so that’s the
42:36
effortless effort where we find Wow a
42:38
lot of work is being done but saying and
42:41
yet it feels like that’s what I want to
42:44
do um so when we fall into this place
42:47
where we allow life to happen through us
42:50
where we realize I’m being lived then
42:53
the required effort unfold part of the
42:59
intelligence of the body going towards
43:03
places that deliver more and more
43:07
food of the sort that is needed that’s
43:10
just the intelligence of the body so we
43:13
find the effort is happening but it
43:16
feels very effortless you just said
43:20
something I’m sorry I don’t really want
43:22
it you know but you take too much of
43:24
your time but you said something that
43:26
kind of made me think that look I’m kind
43:32
of addicted to information and I’m just
43:36
wondering whether add to with what
43:38
extent that is the ego or the mind that
43:42
really loves to sort of twist itself
43:44
around stuff and gather new informations
43:47
and take more light in and more more
43:49
more more more because it’s so joyful
43:51
not because I feel the urge but it’s
43:53
like yeah why not and and I wonder like
43:59
if a fully-realized Billing being
44:02
wouldn’t be just happy to sit there and
44:06
not move or to what extent this ego part
44:11
or you call it they they what what did
44:13
you call it again their mind of thinking
44:16
like yes and it’s got to do with that so
44:21
let’s say a fully-realized or someone so
44:27
let’s be clear on what the definition
44:28
here is someone where suffering has
44:30
ended doesn’t have the biological need
44:34
in a sense to engage in certain
44:37
information because that problem has
44:39
been dealt with so while that problem is
44:42
still there it’s part of the working
44:45
mind not the thinking mind part of the
44:49
working mind that is seeking out that
44:50
information because the working mind
44:52
knows that the information is useful at
44:56
dissolving the problem so once the
44:58
problem is dissolved the working mind no
45:01
longer seeks that information it’s
45:03
irrelevant it’s like I’ve used the boat
45:07
to get from one side of the shore to the
45:09
other when I was on that side and I
45:12
needed to get sir that’s I need to need
45:14
it to go around I needed to negotiate
45:16
with people to buy a boat or to teach me
45:19
how to build a boat or
45:20
so that was functional and then when I
45:23
get to the other side I say no the boat
45:26
isn’t needed anymore
45:27
right so the wisdom of the thinking of
45:30
the working mind says now I don’t need
45:32
to engage in receiving more and more of
45:35
that information I received it a did its
45:37
job and so now I can sit quietly but
45:41
that sounds so boring to me yes we
45:46
imagine what you know we often tend to
45:50
imagine and come to a conclusion of what
45:56
something that is described is going to
45:59
be but isn’t it there are always new
46:01
informations coming in sure for another
46:05
problem let’s say that might be needed
46:07
to be addressed and so if there is an
46:11
interest in something else we’ll be
46:14
interested in information but when the
46:18
suffering falls away what we find is
46:21
that a lot of the time not all the time
46:25
because there is the flow of life – but
46:28
a lot of the time we’re just happy to
46:30
sit quietly and there’s no need to
46:34
entertain ourselves with other
46:37
activities now I don’t say that that is
46:40
how the understanding will present all
46:43
of the time but there will be many more
46:46
it’s it’s sort of intermittent at this
46:49
times we’re just happy to sit quietly to
46:52
drop into our being and understand the
46:54
core of our humanists not understand it
46:56
intellectually but to know it to be it –
46:59
to understand the core of our being is
47:02
this mysterious emptiness and as we drop
47:06
into that there is this self confirming
47:09
contentment yeah I know what you’re
47:11
talking about don’t you but I think I
47:14
still think it’s kind of going on and on
47:16
and on and on and on and from what I
47:18
feel right now it’s like the information
47:20
since it’s always like streaming in more
47:22
and more and more information from I
47:24
don’t know what cosmic sources there’s
47:27
always more to integrate so you know and
47:31
and I feel like I’m very happy to just
47:33
sit and
47:34
and be with me and everything and
47:37
everyone in this state but then also I
47:41
feel like the tide is changing and some
47:44
more information is there and I need to
47:46
integrate that it’s just that I feel
47:49
this is what happening but yeah I agree
47:51
it’s so that that’s that’s right it
47:53
doesn’t become completely self
47:57
absorbance and then the new information
48:01
is information that comes and while
48:02
that’s coming its welcomed it’s received
48:05
but there’s also a wisdom and a knowing
48:08
that if it if we find that we’ve lost
48:12
touch with something because a part of
48:16
our thinking has maybe got attached to
48:18
outcomes or something like that then in
48:21
that instant there’s just it’s like stop
48:23
and we drop into being we know we can go
48:26
back to that thinking in two minutes or
48:29
five minutes or a day’s time or whatever
48:30
and there’s this remembering that as
48:33
soon as the thinking gets overly
48:37
involved if the thinking gets too much
48:40
and starts to become an obscure ins
48:44
for an uncomfortableness automatically
48:47
we say actually no thinking is really
48:50
important hmm right
48:52
the thinking is yes so that’s where the
48:56
the fine balance is is that we engage in
48:59
it when it’s when it’s what we enjoy
49:01
yeah and at any moment we’re able to
49:04
drop out of it understanding that even
49:08
if I stop the thinking mid-sentence it’s
49:11
okay because what would be lost if I
49:13
stop the thinking mid-sentence at worst
49:17
an outcome and when we stop the sentence
49:20
mid mid-sentence the thinking sentence
49:22
to drop back into being what we know is
49:26
if that outcome is lost who cares
49:28
because I’m connected to myself yeah
49:32
it’s beautiful
49:33
okay thank you
49:37
[Music] 49:39
well I have a question about the ego
49:43
identity and think in mind sometimes we
49:47
say like for example I need to work on
49:49
myself so there is object and subject
49:53
somebody is working on somebody is it
49:56
that the working mind is working on the
49:58
thinking mind or sometimes the thinking
50:00
mind is working the thinking mind
50:01
because sometimes we say I need to get
50:04
better at that and like so there is I
50:07
think kind of lost in that all these
50:09
descriptions and I think yesterday you
50:11
said like ego it’s just the identity
50:13
it’s not something that is really
50:16
separate that we have to destroy because
50:18
then how would we function in life if it
50:21
didn’t exist so ok so I’ll start by
50:26
defining that in this teaching and this
50:30
teaching is based on looking at what is
50:32
practically here and putting
50:34
descriptions onto what’s practically
50:36
here it says we are the person and I
50:41
acknowledge that the methodology of
50:44
undoing certain dynamics of the person
50:47
actually may require a teaching to say
50:51
you are not the person right because if
50:54
a teaching says you are not the person
50:57
let the thinking of the person be let
51:01
the cravings of the person be you are
51:04
not that remain centered in what you are
51:06
and to me they’re talking to an aspect
51:10
of the person and when we find ourselves
51:13
witnessing the body functioning the
51:18
thinking functioning we can often follow
51:22
the descriptions given and think ah now
51:25
I know myself which is not the person
51:28
when we look more closely we find that
51:31
actually the witnessing aspect that can
51:35
get triggered that can can a shift that
51:38
can happen because we’re told we’re not
51:40
the person which is why I don’t have a
51:42
criticism for a teaching that says you
51:45
are not the person I understand it as a
51:46
essentially a an input from life
51:49
bringing about a change
51:51
when we look at this shift and we say
51:55
hey I’ve believed that this shift is
51:58
something that is not the person
52:00
witnessing the person and we believe
52:04
this because as part of those teachings
52:06
were told a lot of things like it says
52:07
you can’t be the person because if you
52:09
were the person you wouldn’t be able to
52:11
observe the person and then we’re the
52:13
teachings is just like the eye can’t see
52:16
the I write some really those statements
52:21
don’t hold up to critical thought I’m
52:24
but luckily seekers at certain points
52:28
well not luckily we don’t have that much
52:32
critical capacity at some points and we
52:34
believe things and actually it’s helpful
52:36
to believe some things because it brings
52:38
about shifts brings about change but
52:41
what if it just like okay the I can’t
52:43
see itself but the eye can see the leg
52:46
and the eye can see the hand and the
52:51
hand is the part of the person right or
52:55
part of the body and the eye is part of
52:57
the body so actually you could say the
53:00
body can see itself at least the body
53:04
can see part of itself the eye part of
53:06
the body you can see the hand part of
53:09
the body so then if we start bringing a
53:14
bit of critical thinking to these things
53:16
that have a purpose where they say you
53:18
know if you can witness the body or not
53:20
the body say well what about if an
53:24
aspect of the person is able to witness
53:29
another aspect of the person and we say
53:34
wow so maybe when witnessing happens
53:36
that isn’t suddenly the witnessing of
53:39
God witnessing the body that I am NOT
53:46
maybe witnessing is a shift of the
53:51
person where the capacity of a person’s
53:55
awareness expands such that the
54:01
awareness of the person
54:03
can observe from a a different
54:08
standpoint to what it could before it
54:10
received those instructions before it
54:13
received those inputs and so I would say
54:18
that we are the person even when shifts
54:21
happen that allow witnessing to happen
54:23
that is the person witnessing split in
54:27
the mind let’s say that there is
54:29
awareness of the mind itself exactly so
54:34
you know where we this is so for me this
54:38
teaching is it’s bringing in nuances
54:42
that haven’t been needed before in fact
54:46
if you bring these nuances in before
54:49
they can disturb the shifts because if
54:52
you become too nuanced about the
54:54
descriptions that may not have as
54:56
powerful an effect on what needs to
55:00
happen as if we just make say something
55:03
like you are not the body so with your
55:09
question was hey can you please explain
55:11
the difference between ego the
55:13
difference between thinking mind the
55:15
difference between working in this
55:17
phrases when we see ourselves that we
55:21
want to work on some part of ourselves I
55:23
mean yeah this more than like
55:28
descriptions like who works on what we
55:31
worked on so this is why I had to first
55:35
give a description of what I would say
55:38
is from you know many years of
55:42
investigating what is actually happening
55:44
and finding that certain the Leafs and
55:47
certain concepts get questioned and say
55:49
hey that doesn’t that’s not that’s
55:51
necessarily as true it as as it I might
55:53
have been told that so I have to put
55:55
that in place in order to answer your
55:57
question correctly so what is the ego
56:01
the ego in this teaching equates to the
56:04
person and we are a person at the point
56:08
of being conceived we could say the
56:11
person starts we’re born so the person
56:13
is now in the world and throughout the
56:15
process
56:16
to death we are the person ramen are to
56:19
me and I sort of when you come to see it
56:23
like how can someone see it differently
56:26
although we can completely come to see
56:29
how impressionable impressionable we are
56:31
based on new conditioning that we could
56:34
we suddenly see the world through the
56:37
lens we have so to me ramana was a
56:40
person who went up into a mountain
56:42
stayed in caves meditated change was
56:45
happening to that person change whereby
56:48
a realization of self happened now what
56:52
is that self to me the self is the core
56:54
of Ramana the core of the human being so
56:58
we always are the person and that is
57:02
what I would say we can call the ego so
57:06
the ego doesn’t die the person remains
57:11
so what is it that dissolves what is it
57:15
that dies and when in different
57:18
teachings we hear that word ego what are
57:20
they referring to because they’re not
57:22
using the word ego in the same way that
57:24
I’ve just described it so in those other
57:27
teachings ego equates to what in this
57:30
teaching is the belief in personal
57:32
doership an attachment to outcome so we
57:35
can have any ego with the belief in
57:38
personal doership and attachment to
57:39
outcome and then an ego that has as a
57:43
result of life impacting it a certain
57:45
way changing it we have an ego where the
57:47
belief in personal doership an
57:49
attachment outcome has fallen away has
57:51
been dissolved has been seen by the mind
57:55
of the ego to be essentially a belief in
58:01
the very same mind of the ego that’s why
58:04
we create the conceptual distinction of
58:07
the thinking mind and the working mind
58:08
so we say the belief in personal
58:11
doership an attachment to outcomes
58:13
exists in what we call the thinking mind
58:16
and then when the working mind is which
58:20
really is the same one brain when the
58:24
working mind
58:26
is conditioned by life with concepts
58:31
that allow it to see the functioning of
58:34
itself so our brain especially once this
58:39
witnessing shift has happened has the
58:42
capacity to see itself or to see outputs
58:47
of itself and assess them right so the
58:52
shift is actually a changing of the
58:55
brain structure such that there is a
58:58
rigidity that was there before has
59:00
loosened up and then the brain brain
59:05
mind functioning of the intelligent
59:09
elect
59:09
cognition whatever we wanted to call it
59:11
can see things that it couldn’t see
59:13
before so it sees its own functioning
59:18
from a more objective standpoint so if
59:24
we say I need to work on myself it could
59:29
be any could be the thinking mind
59:32
thinking that it has control to do
59:39
whatever work it wants to do right which
59:42
is the thinking mind not realizing that
59:44
it cannot only function according to how
59:48
life shapes it in each moment so if the
59:51
thinking mind says I have to work on
59:53
myself I’m going to make this happen
59:55
that’s the thinking mind if a part of a
59:58
different part of the mind that has
60:01
realized actually this attitude of
60:03
personal doership an attachment to
60:05
outcome is part of the problem so I
60:09
understand that work on myself will only
60:12
happen as part of the unfolding of life
60:15
and as life conditions the mind to see
60:20
things that couldn’t see before
60:23
whenever the change happens it’s always
60:26
because the working mind sees aspects
60:31
that are not optimal and those aspects
60:35
dissolve
60:40
one of the methodologies is a
60:43
methodology that encourages so I say
60:47
that actually all this talk is really
60:49
about silence at the end of the day the
60:53
talk is just talking to the working mind
60:55
so that the working line gets equipped
60:57
in a way that it currently isn’t the way
61:02
the brain functions because it’s an
61:04
intelligent self-organizing intelligence
61:09
that grows upon itself once it gets a
61:12
base it will contemplate which is just a
61:16
functioning of them of the brain and the
61:19
understanding it’s deeper and deeper and
61:21
that means the antidote gets more and
61:24
more powerful the antidote that starts
61:27
cutting off the thinking mind and once
61:31
it’s become a fairly strong antidote it
61:36
cuts off the thinking mind quickly and
61:38
then it knows shut up like it knows stop
61:44
that the working mind understands that
61:48
it only has a job to do when a job is
61:50
needed so it cuts often in silence so
61:56
even though I’m talking a lot we’re
61:57
really talking about silence and so
62:00
another teaching that encouraged us
62:02
encourages us to leave the person leave
62:08
the personhood alone is really
62:11
encouraging silence as well now the to
62:18
support each other because if we only
62:21
know the working mind and we don’t ever
62:23
appreciate silence it’s a problem if we
62:27
only know silence and we keep dropping
62:29
into silence certain dynamics that are
62:32
in place don’t get addressed you know by
62:34
dropping into silence the actual route
62:37
error doesn’t get uprooted so in the end
62:41
we finds the combination
62:43
of knowing silence and dropping into
62:46
silence and appreciating what we really
62:50
are which really becomes part of the
62:54
experience knowledge experiential
62:57
knowledge of the work in mind like
62:59
knowing are what I am just silence is
63:03
enough not an easy enough it is what
63:09
allows there to be contentment and
63:12
fullness in the present moment so
63:16
dropping into silence becomes part of
63:18
the information the working mind gathers
63:21
that allows it to know that its job is
63:24
really to cut off suffering and then be
63:25
quiet so that’s working Mike can be
63:31
conditioned as well or is actually being
63:33
conditioned it is yeah to just stop
63:37
as often as it feels good to stop stop
63:42
because that stopping is the ultimate
63:46
resting place it’s it’s the goal in a
63:48
sense the silence from the thinking mind
63:52
so did that happen in you that the
63:55
working mind start functioning or maybe
63:59
you’re not working the thinking whine
64:00
mind or it’s just like the function is
64:05
different now of the thinking mind the
64:09
thinking mind ceases at some point
64:12
because the ground on which or the
64:18
ground that we call the thinking mind
64:20
gets dissolved why does it get dissolved
64:22
let’s talk about this what is the basis
64:24
of the thinking mind the basis of the
64:26
thinking mind is the belief that I am a
64:29
separate entity in life not connected to
64:33
life essentially this autonomous
64:35
independent insulated entity this me
64:39
controller and that I require outcomes
64:43
pleasure pleasure pleasure in order to
64:45
be complete they are when we start
64:48
investigating fictions let’s look at the
64:51
doer shop this is the explanation you’ve
64:53
heard it before but it doesn’t hurt to
64:54
hear it again
64:56
what is the explanation that says I am
64:58
never disconnected from life and I am
65:02
never autonomous and independent so says
65:08
how does what is the ego what is the
65:11
human being the human being is a
65:13
combination of the body which includes
65:18
the brain very complex interconnected so
65:22
when I talk about the brain is really
65:23
not separate from the rest of the body
65:25
so we are a biological instrument but
65:29
that biological instrument without
65:31
consciousness is effectively useless so
65:36
the human being is a combination of the
65:39
vehicle and consciousness flowing
65:42
through that vehicle now let’s look at
65:46
the vehicle because the vehicle is
65:48
exactly that the vehicle you can’t have
65:51
a person without the vehicle so the
65:55
person is the combination of vehicle and
65:57
consciousness now it’s the vehicle that
66:01
functions the consciousness just
66:05
enlivens the vehicle creates the
66:08
capacity of awareness and the sense of
66:11
existence so the human being where did
66:18
it come from it spawned it was an
66:24
extrusion an expression of a greater
66:27
life a life that let’s say starts off as
66:32
basic elements if we go further back we
66:37
could say it was nothing at some point
66:41
nothing exploded into everything and a
66:46
complexity started to happen out of the
66:51
basic became more complex so the complex
66:55
is a result of the basic and the basic
66:58
essentially is linked to the nothing and
67:01
so as the basic becomes more complex at
67:05
some point life comes out of the complex
67:09
and a human being or the human species
67:13
becomes the wave of evolution so
67:22
humanity is not separate from life it’s
67:25
a result of the developing complexity of
67:28
this manifestation and then when we look
67:31
at us as a specific human where did our
67:35
vehicle come from the sperm and the egg
67:38
came together and started to grow
67:42
because of a biological intelligence not
67:45
something that we controlled and the
67:51
growing continued to happen the heart
67:53
started pumping at a certain time the
67:55
brain started the arms developed and so
67:59
what we are here in physical form and
68:02
mental form is a result of the growing
68:05
process which is essentially life and so
68:13
we see I didn’t create myself I am a
68:18
result of life so I’m not separate from
68:24
life ever I’ve never you know when when
68:26
I was ejected out of the parent out of
68:33
the mother out of the womb and the cord
68:35
was cut right we might tell that’s when
68:39
I became separate but we were never
68:42
separate we we were in a hospital room
68:46
to start off with and in the hospital
68:48
room we were held and spoken to and
68:51
let’s say we weren’t we were left alone
68:54
that all of that whether we were spoken
68:57
to and held or whether we left alone
69:01
we were never isolated from the
69:04
circumstance so we developed we grew
69:07
according to the genetic structure which
69:10
is still functioning automatically like
69:12
we don’t do the immune system we don’t
69:14
do the heart pumping we don’t do the
69:16
brain thinking all of that is happening
69:19
and all along in life
69:23
we’re being conditioned by whatever
69:25
we’re exposed to by the family we were
69:28
born into by them religious structure in
69:32
the area that we grew up in the
69:34
political the friends that we met the
69:36
school we went to and none of that was
69:38
in our control we don’t know what we how
69:42
we’re going to be conditioned in the
69:43
next moment so here we are in life once
69:46
again the body’s still being conditioned
69:49
by life this talk is just new
69:51
conditioning and how it affects us it’s
69:55
not in my control I can’t control how
69:58
the new conditioning that’s coming out
70:00
here is going to affect someone and the
70:04
person themselves can’t control how
70:06
they’re going to be affected we can only
70:08
see the result in a particular moment so
70:12
then it says that however I function
70:13
however I think however I speak I’m
70:17
speaking English now because I was
70:18
conditioned by life in an
70:20
english-speaking country I can’t speak
70:23
Japanese unless life somehow brings in
70:27
that conditioning so at each point in
70:33
time each moment I am an instrument
70:37
designed by life to be one way the way I
70:41
am everyone is the same and so we will
70:46
all function contrary to the thinking
70:49
mind that says oh I could function this
70:51
way or that way in a particular moment
70:53
so the thinking mind says oh I should
70:56
have functioned differently to the way I
70:58
did that’s a thought process based on a
71:03
lack of understanding of the actual
71:06
dynamics that bring about the movement
71:08
of the human being
71:09
when we understand I am like a
71:11
calculator or or any instrument the
71:15
calculator when we put in a certain
71:17
input 2+2 is forced to output one answer
71:22
you know the calculator can’t say five
71:25
when you put in two plus two unless the
71:29
calculator is designed to output 5 but
71:33
calculators assuming they’re designed
71:35
correctly you’ve got to
71:37
– which is the input has to output for
71:40
its non-optional and the human being is
71:43
essentially a very complex vehicle that
71:46
receives input in a particular moment
71:49
and has to according to its design put
71:55
out a specific output and the machine
71:58
itself when it’s not programmed to
72:02
understand life clearly looks at the
72:05
output doesn’t understand it as the
72:08
output of a machine and the machine it
72:11
says cell itself says oh I should have
72:13
produced a different output and at a
72:17
certain point in time life conditions
72:19
the machine to realize it’s a machine
72:21
and to see that the output that was put
72:25
out at every point in life by this
72:28
machine and by all the other machines
72:30
was what was destined to be put out so
72:34
the machine stops saying I should have
72:38
done this differently you should have
72:40
done this different but the machine
72:41
stops looking at a circumstance and
72:44
blaming the person for an extended
72:47
period in horizontal time it’s just no
72:51
longer programmed to do that and until
72:55
life delivers a change in programming
72:57
the machine is forced to look at the
72:59
action of someone that hurt it or
73:01
delivered pain and hate them seeing them
73:05
as a separate independent entity not
73:08
understanding that they actually are a
73:10
programmed instrument force – so what
73:13
I’m talking about is a change in the
73:15
programming of the machine that allows
73:18
acceptance to happen and what is
73:22
acceptance acceptance is simply the
73:24
absence of non acceptance so acceptance
73:27
is not something the machine does what
73:29
happens is the machine stops producing
73:32
outputs of non acceptance of blame of
73:36
shame of pride of expectation of how
73:40
life should look it stops producing that
73:42
and then the experience is that’s peace
73:45
of mind
74:15
so with all being said isn’t eventually
74:20
an essentially the end of the quest is
74:25
knowing who you truly are and and
74:27
realizing that there’s no separation or
74:30
the dissolvent of separation between you
74:35
and everything else yes I mean it sounds
74:40
like it’s not necessarily you it sounds
74:42
like you say okay I’m working on on the
74:45
machinery system on the mind and the
74:47
walk your mind but what I try to
74:49
understand from your point of view is it
74:53
necessary to have this to say like a end
74:59
of separation end of separation and to
75:02
ground it and to make it like it depends
75:05
what separation someone is talking about
75:07
because in this understanding which is
75:11
the falling away of the misunderstanding
75:13
essentially psychological separation
75:16
falls away but we have to be very clear
75:20
on what that separation is what is the
75:22
separation that causes the suffering
75:24
because often what we’re looking for is
75:28
an end of separation on the experiential
75:31
level right and when oneness states
75:36
happen there is experiential oneness so
75:44
you could say the end of separation
75:45
experientially and those oneness States
75:53
very aided in a sense they come in when
75:59
we are exposed to certain teachings a
76:02
talk about oneness my explanation of
76:06
that is that the brain actually is a
76:08
very impressionable instrument the way
76:16
that the brain works is it fills in gaps
76:19
based on what it has learnt should be in
76:21
the gaps so if we understand how the
76:23
brain produces experience
76:26
it produces experience based on what it
76:33
has learned should be in the experience
76:37
and so we can see this in various
76:40
optical illusions where certain lines
76:43
and shadows are put in a certain way and
76:45
the brain will see a certain image that
76:49
when you change something you realize
76:51
why that was just a 2-dimensional image
76:53
and the brain sees it as 3-dimensional
76:55
for example so and neurology will tell
76:58
us that’s because the brain has learned
77:00
that when those lines and shadows exist
77:02
in that to see depth because when it has
77:06
its experience that it sees those lines
77:08
and then the rest of it experience goes
77:10
and experiences depth right so it learns
77:16
what it should experience based on
77:19
minimal data and so what we end up with
77:22
is a very complex experience that
77:24
essentially is brain created a lot of it
77:28
so when we hear that life is oneness my
77:33
reasoning behind this because I’ve been
77:35
through the phases where the oneness
77:39
states come in and at those phases I was
77:44
relating to that as truths as reality
77:46
the end of illusion because I was told
77:49
that separation experiential separation
77:53
is illusion the world is one and then
77:58
suddenly the oneness experiences the
78:00
shifts the peak experience start having
78:02
an at first which oh wow it was true
78:04
they were telling me I wasn’t seeing
78:06
life as it really is
78:07
that was illusion and that when illusion
78:10
falls away we will see reality and so of
78:13
course when that happens the intellect
78:17
says that is reality thanks to the only
78:22
teacher I had in physical form and
78:25
someone asked me recently so this is the
78:27
answer do you think you needed to have
78:31
personal contact with your guru in order
78:35
for the process to complete itself and I
78:37
say yes to that question I don’t say you
78:38
have
78:39
everyone has to but in my case I see
78:42
that the personal contact with my
78:44
teacher where he answered specific
78:47
queries specifically to me because of my
78:51
question my specific question and when I
78:54
saw the process that happened as a
78:56
result of that answering of the question
78:58
a lot of it was arguing I was always
79:00
arguing with him in my head until I saw
79:04
what he was pointing at right so to me
79:06
the answer is yes I needed at a certain
79:09
point because until that point all of
79:12
the oneness realizations happened
79:15
without personal contact to Guru just
79:18
reading the teachings of gurus that had
79:20
died and at that stage I thought that
79:24
was the ultimate because certain
79:26
teachings will you know it’s the direct
79:28
path it’s so the oneness is becomes
79:32
ingrained as the ultimate realization so
79:36
when I went to see my teacher
79:39
Ramesh which was accidental serve life
79:43
seems to take us where we need to go
79:46
these deep realizations and experience
79:51
experientially knowing life as non
79:54
separate where I didn’t relate to myself
79:57
as the body
79:58
I rely experientially knew myself as
80:02
formless awareness in which everything
80:04
arose and that was like that for many
80:06
years
80:06
in very extreme forms and more subtle
80:10
forms and there was not much suffering
80:14
and so I was convinced that is the
80:18
movement and I thought well the movement
80:20
is going to become even more towards
80:23
absolute experiential oneness and then
80:27
Ramesh responded to something I brought
80:35
up when I went to Mumbai after a
80:39
particularly deep development I guess
80:44
you could say of this oneness and I went
80:48
and I explained this state that had come
80:51
in which to me was like the out
80:53
it couldn’t get any more of oneness than
80:55
this and any more of the dissolving of
80:57
the person and this identification from
81:00
the body witnessing everything from
81:03
nowhere in particular knowing oneself as
81:07
the consciousness in which everything
81:09
arises seeing that the whole of what
81:12
seems to be real solid is actually just
81:15
made of this awareness and not separate
81:18
from it and witnessed by so the
81:21
experience was exactly in line with the
81:23
teachings right and there’s no way that
81:27
at that time I would say that that was
81:30
influenced by concept actually I will I
81:35
said at that time that’s the complete
81:37
when all concept falls away that is what
81:39
reveals itself I have to say to everyone
81:42
on the video how wrong I was that’s not
81:45
the liberation that’s not the
81:48
enlightenment enlightenment is not a
81:50
state of oneness life is one right the
81:59
nature of life is oneness but we’re not
82:03
looking for the experience of oneness
82:07
the experience of oneness on a
82:10
continuous basis especially oneness
82:12
where the all separation falls away is
82:15
not what enlightenment in so I’m talking
82:23
from my experience and my teachers and
82:26
how I interpret the other teachings even
82:29
if they say things that are
82:30
contradictory when you’re looking
82:31
between the lines and see other things
82:33
you see actually no one is talking about
82:35
life as a oneness experience going
82:40
through those phases can be helpful and
82:44
it is part of the rigidity of the brain
82:48
loosening up where life is able to be
82:51
perceived from a different perspective
82:55
so Ramesh told me when I described this
82:59
and I described it because I really felt
83:02
that okay so because it faded the very
83:05
you
83:05
tense version faded away and was left
83:09
with the more subtle version of seeing
83:12
everything as one still being in contact
83:14
with the consciousness in which
83:15
everything arises and be knowing myself
83:17
as that so when I say it faded away the
83:21
experiential knowing of the universe’s
83:23
oneness didn’t fade away and it was
83:26
there for years before this particularly
83:29
intense experience and it was there for
83:31
years afterwards and it’s always
83:33
accessible with I can as a human I can
83:36
drop into a human functioning especially
83:40
when there’s nothing to do where we just
83:42
drop into a witnessing and this oneness
83:45
of experience comes in and but the
83:53
enlightened state and we have to define
83:58
this in this teaching just the end of
84:00
suffering is exactly that the end of
84:02
suffering so I kept explaining
84:05
describing this room and she said Roger
84:07
don’t worry about it that was just an
84:08
experience and like in my mind that then
84:11
it was what what do you mean is just an
84:12
experience actually it was the office it
84:13
was the end of experience as I related
84:15
to the word experience back then so this
84:17
was the end of experience which is said
84:19
to be experiences Allu that was reality
84:22
and one day it will come back in the
84:26
very intense version and that is what
84:28
enlightenment is that was my standpoint
84:30
anything Roger that was just an
84:31
experience don’t worry about it so I you
84:34
know three times I described it in case
84:36
I would be that I must have been getting
84:37
it a little wrong he wasn’t getting what
84:39
I was describing and he kept saying
84:42
Roger don’t worry about that was just an
84:43
experience and I didn’t I sort of left
84:48
not satisfied in a sense somewhere in
84:51
the back of my mind I said well maybe he
84:53
doesn’t know what I’m describing maybe
84:58
he hasn’t had that deep realization
85:00
maybe he doesn’t know what enlightenment
85:01
is because what I experienced is what
85:05
all the great masters in their teachings
85:08
are suggesting once again how wrong I
85:12
was right he knew more because his
85:15
process and therefore teaching was
85:18
actually of beyond
85:19
that experiential oneness steak and he
85:24
keep kept emphasizing and teaching what
85:26
we’re really looking for when you go
85:28
past the concepts and the beliefs that
85:30
we’ve picked up what you’re really
85:32
looking for is just the end of suffering
85:35
and so I use I’d say yes in that
85:40
experience in that shift there was no
85:43
suffering so that’s right I am looking
85:45
for the end of suffering and that end of
85:47
suffering comes in that experience I
85:50
hadn’t landed on the fact that in my
85:53
experience the end of suffering was
85:55
largely there before that experience I
85:59
was describing but because the
86:02
experience was different and profound it
86:06
hadn’t really dawned on me that what
86:08
we’re looking for something so simple
86:10
and so even when I had something so
86:13
simple which was the end of suffering
86:16
still had an expectation that
86:18
enlightenment is a oneness experience or
86:22
a oneness absence of experience you
86:25
could say depending on what your use of
86:28
the word experience is and that’s why he
86:33
kept saying to me Roger don’t worry
86:34
about it that was just an experience I
86:36
was just state that’s not what
86:38
enlightenment is what you’re looking for
86:40
is peace of mind so it didn’t register
86:43
it didn’t I just stood here one day
86:45
it’ll come back pretty soon because I
86:47
could see the process was developing
86:49
that way and I kept taking the path that
86:54
I had taken in that morning walk when it
86:57
had really happened for 15 minutes or so
86:59
and waiting for it to happen again and I
87:03
saw after about a month there was this
87:06
sort of craving coming back in and
87:11
uncomfortableness with the fact it
87:13
wasn’t there and because I had become
87:16
very astute towards what suffering was
87:19
it suddenly occurred to me like of
87:22
suffering is here in a craving for a
87:25
state and then his words hit me he said
87:30
you know
87:31
looking for a oneness experience what
87:33
you’re looking for in practical terms is
87:35
the end of peace the end of suffering
87:37
peace of mind and I realized that this
87:42
expectation that really what I was
87:44
looking for is this oneness state was
87:47
now creating suffering which wasn’t
87:49
there in the years before and now
87:52
suffering was arising again and when I
87:55
saw it and I looked at what the basis of
87:57
that suffering was I said it’s based on
88:00
an expectation of what enlightenment is
88:02
an expectation that enlightenment is a
88:04
oneness experience meaning oneness on an
88:07
experiential level meaning the end of
88:09
separation on an experiential level and
88:13
I said what if he’s right
88:16
what if that was just an experience and
88:18
that’s not what enlightenment is and
88:21
clicked I said actually I’m just looking
88:24
for peace of mind and I’ve had peace of
88:26
mind for years and now my peace of mind
88:29
is disturbed by this expectation and the
88:34
thought was what if I can have peace of
88:36
mind without a oneness experience and it
88:41
wasn’t just a hypothetical I said of
88:43
course you can have peace of mind
88:44
without a oneness I have had that and so
88:48
in that moment the expectation the
88:51
belief that was in the system that was
88:55
saying enlightenment is the end of
88:58
separation on an experiential level fell
89:00
away and the strange thing is that the
89:03
peak experiences that I had been having
89:05
a lot of in that period of time almost
89:08
instantly stopped happen so does that
89:13
mean that I now went back into illusion
89:17
and doesn’t mean that now I was back in
89:23
illusion and reality has slipped away
89:26
that’s what some people might conclude
89:29
from listening to this oh you you lost
89:33
it in a sense and I said not at all
89:35
because my experience went to a whole
89:38
new level of depth of peace of mind
89:43
and it became from my own experience I
89:49
exclaimed
89:50
from a I’m not looking for a oneness
89:53
experience in practical terms what I’m
89:57
looking for is peace of mind in daily
89:59
living which is the absence of suffering
90:01
and that peace of mind exists while
90:04
knowing myself as a person while knowing
90:08
myself as an object in a world that is
90:12
distinct from this object in the world
90:15
so my experience is not of oneness
90:20
experientially meaning not knowing
90:25
myself as the tree or the other person
90:29
if I come to the experience the
90:31
experiences I know myself as Roger
90:36
understanding that life itself is one in
90:41
that this is not disconnected from the
90:47
rest of life that has come before and
90:49
even if we say well actually the rest of
90:53
life that came before is just conceptual
90:55
where is it
90:56
it’s okay life now this night none of it
91:01
is actually separate really it appears
91:07
to have distinction and the computer is
91:12
distinct from the tree but on another
91:15
level we can see the interconnectedness
91:17
on many different levels we can see
91:19
different forms of interconnectedness we
91:22
can understand that our perception
91:24
creates boundaries that beyond the
91:29
rudimentary perception don’t actually
91:31
exist but because life is experienced
91:35
through the body instrument those
91:38
distinctions created by the senses will
91:41
continue to remain there and so
91:44
experientially I will know myself as a
91:48
particular entity meaning if we stick
91:52
this body in LAC body next I’d much
91:54
rather someone sticks a knife in that
91:56
body
91:57
instead of this body because my feedback
91:59
in life is that experientially I am
92:04
linked to this body and when someone
92:07
sticks a knife in the leg of that body I
92:10
don’t feel it when someone hammers the
92:14
stone I don’t feel it but if they hammer
92:17
my knee I feel it and so we come and we
92:22
start seeing that there is a continuous
92:26
experience of being a particular body
92:31
experientially separate from the other
92:35
body so life experientially continues to
92:39
be a duality experience from the
92:43
perspective of a specific body so what
92:48
is the separation that actually falls
92:51
away the separation that falls away is
92:54
not an experiential separation when we
92:57
come to know theoretically deeply that
93:01
theoretically life is all one on many
93:05
different levels we can come to
93:06
understand that theoretically the
93:08
theoretical understanding doesn’t change
93:10
the experiential the experience itself
93:14
which remains an experience of me and
93:17
the other of many objects some which are
93:24
pleasurable to this body and some which
93:26
are painful the psychological separation
93:32
that falls away is the separation of
93:35
seeing myself as a separate independent
93:38
entity not connected to life and
93:41
therefore seeing the other as a separate
93:43
independent entity and what has happened
93:48
there is psychologically we’ve
93:50
essentially drawn a circle around
93:51
ourselves a circle that has somehow cut
93:55
ourself out of life and said I’m not
94:00
connected to life I’m a separate
94:03
independent entity now because I’ve seen
94:07
myself that way hasn’t actually
94:09
made me separate from life it’s just a
94:13
perception of myself that perceives a
94:16
separation where it doesn’t actually
94:17
exist
94:18
and so then I perceive the other as a
94:21
separate independent doer essentially
94:24
drawn a psychological circle around them
94:26
and cut themselves out and we have
94:28
become by nature competitors rivals and
94:34
in the worst case enemies because I see
94:38
that seeing myself as a separate
94:41
independent entity that requires
94:43
pleasure pleasure pleasure
94:44
in order to be complete I see the other
94:47
as a competitor against my happiness
94:51
because in any moment the other can
94:53
deliver pain to me and so this attitude
94:58
of suspicion and rivalry competition and
95:02
anonymity is always there in the
95:05
background ready to fire up if the other
95:09
delivers pain to me and so
95:12
psychologically that is the separation
95:15
that creates competition and rivalry and
95:19
anonymity between me and the other
95:21
because I see myself as a doer that is
95:24
in control of what happens I see the
95:25
other as a doer and control with them
95:27
and so therefore I have to see ourselves
95:30
as competitors in life if that falls
95:34
away I see that I am connected to source
95:37
I am an instrument of source
95:40
I am never separate from source and you
95:44
are also connected to source never
95:47
separate from source so essentially we
95:49
are like fingers on a hand
95:52
apparently separate but intrinsically
95:56
controlled by not ourselves when I see
96:04
myself as separate it’s like all of the
96:07
fingers are seen as separate and so if
96:09
one finger bumps into the other I have
96:12
to hate that finger for bumping into me
96:14
and I hate that entity that I see is
96:18
separate and independent whereas what we
96:22
come to see
96:23
life is like a big set of dominoes you
96:27
know at the beginning the first domino
96:31
was hit and then that has a follow-on
96:36
effect to everything that happens and
96:37
it’s not personal
96:38
a good analogy of this is the pool-table
96:43
where the white ball hits the red ball
96:45
and then all the balls are in action and
96:49
they’re all part of one much bigger
96:52
movement the psychological separation is
96:56
what sees me as one of the balls
97:00
independent from life and sees that I
97:04
bump into another ball of my own free
97:07
will and volition which is not the
97:10
actuality of things the movement my
97:13
movement is driven in this example by
97:16
the initial impulse of the cue onto the
97:18
white ball in a closed environment and
97:23
how everything ends up is predetermined
97:28
by all of the variables in the system so
97:31
if simultaneous to the cue hitting the
97:37
white ball onto the red ball someone has
97:39
a computer program that simulates this
97:43
and let’s say it can simulate it at 10
97:45
times actual speed and so at the same
97:49
time as the cue hitting the white ball
97:51
they press simulate and push all the
97:53
balls move and a pattern ends up and
97:56
then we wait for that to happen and what
97:59
happens is the pattern matches the
98:03
simulation answer so we see that what’s
98:07
happening in life is predetermined what
98:10
will happen in life is predetermined we
98:13
just can’t see from our perspective what
98:16
is predetermined but at some point we
98:19
might realize that if I bump into
98:21
another it’s not personal I was forced
98:24
to bump into them what’s more important
98:28
if they bump into me I understand it’s
98:31
not personal so now the psychological
98:34
separation between me and the other has
98:36
in a way and I see we’re all brothers
98:39
and sisters in a universal game of
98:45
consciousness or manifestation of life
98:48
forced to function according to the
98:51
rules or the cosmic laws God’s will
98:55
life’s will so now the hatred and shame
99:00
the expectation in the future the regret
99:04
of the past the complaining about the
99:07
present moment the base on which that
99:10
used to arise is not there anymore so
99:12
life continues to happen people will
99:16
continue to bump into me push me in
99:19
places that are beneficial or not so
99:23
beneficial according to my preferences I
99:26
am going to continue to bump into people
99:28
and they’re going to thank me or punish
99:32
me and it’s not personal
99:42
just for the sake of the recording if
99:45
you don’t mind I’m using that just
99:57
because you manifested a attachment to
99:59
the experience of oneness does that not
100:03
does that necessarily take away that
100:07
it’s an aspect of the ultimate truth I
100:10
hear what you’re describing it’s almost
100:12
like I can see the difference between is
100:16
there any meaning to this because if
100:19
it’s all just kind of like a random
100:20
thing set in motion and the infinite
100:23
process of infinite Karma’s just
100:24
producing whatever comes next mm-hmm you
100:29
that could lend the sense that there is
100:31
no God’s will hmm the only sense of
100:35
God’s will might be that in some
100:37
convoluted way where we are going to end
100:40
up in emptiness so then you have a
100:41
problem of definition of what you know
100:44
you thought this was enlightenment now
100:45
this is enlightenment and listening to I
100:48
get the sense that maybe the two of them
100:51
are aspects of enlightenment and you had
100:52
to experience it that that at that time
100:54
to prepare for that and then that would
100:56
leapfrog to the next thing where you
100:57
would react spear Ian Swan that’s over
100:59
and above your acceptance and the two
101:02
would marry each other into something
101:03
even greater at a future time it could
101:07
it could be because as we said earlier I
101:10
don’t see the process as having an end
101:13
and so peace of mind is if there’s no
101:20
end from my experience it is at least a
101:24
stop along the way it’s a stop along the
101:28
way that is a very significant stop
101:32
because once the peace of mind sets in
101:34
experientially we feel that there is no
101:39
sense of caring in a sense if there is
101:43
anything more that comes after it
101:45
because the peace of mind means no
101:48
resistance with life
101:51
no attachment to things improving in a
101:55
sense and yet there’s an openness that
101:58
says I don’t know that this is the end
102:00
and so there could be greater levels of
102:05
enlightenment you could say yes a
102:07
greater embrace of mystery yes
102:11
however I’ve very much seen that in
102:16
order to get to the peace of mind the
102:21
falling away of certain concepts
102:28
certain beliefs needs to happen yeah
102:35
it’s like the same thing being riri
102:37
instructed when something has been
102:39
removed that apparently seems different
102:44
like almost paradoxical acceptance and
102:47
oneness it’s like at a certain level
102:49
they appear paradoxical and yet as they
102:52
move together to higher octaves they
102:54
become well actually just different
102:57
flavors of exactly the same thing or
102:58
complementary um and yes so then we
103:09
never arrive
103:10
oh wait no that’s not true but I mean we
103:12
it’s we’re left with that speechlessness
103:14
that silence of never being able to say
103:18
exactly what it is what it is or where
103:22
we are yeah so you’re you’ve touched on
103:30
a couple of important points here so in
103:32
this framework this conceptual framework
103:34
we define what enlightenment is
103:38
according to this framework which
103:40
hopefully people can see it’s a
103:45
definition of essentially a process that
103:50
never ends so what does that mean we’re
103:52
saying okay we’re defining enlightenment
103:54
within this teaching as something
103:58
specific but not necessarily saying it
104:02
has an end and so in this stage
104:05
enlightenment is the end of suffering
104:08
that’s specific definition given to it
104:11
and we can come to that station along
104:16
the path of life understanding that just
104:21
because we’ve defined an eye that
104:23
actually there is no such thing in my
104:25
mind as enlightenment unless we create
104:29
definition of it so someone will have a
104:31
definition or no enlightenment is having
104:34
special powers right that’s fair enough
104:37
for me like okay so your concept of
104:40
enlightenment is X Y & Z and I say okay
104:44
so that enlightenment is not something I
104:47
have been graced with but the
104:50
Enlightenment has defined in this
104:52
teaching as the end of suffering is
104:54
something I know from personal
104:55
experience is available after life does
104:59
certain things after life change is a
105:01
particular way and so why is it that in
105:04
this teaching it’s chosen out of the
105:07
many changes that can happen to focus on
105:12
this one and the answer is simple is
105:14
that until that happens there is an
105:20
uncomfortableness in the human being and
105:22
that uncomfortableness creates a seeking
105:26
and it creates a sense that life needs
105:29
to be different and when this kicks in
105:33
when life changes us and there’s no
105:36
suffering without it being conceptually
105:39
when we actually experience it
105:40
experiences this is all that I’ve ever
105:45
been looking for and then when that’s
105:52
the case when experientially we find
105:54
there is nothing more to seek doesn’t
105:56
mean there’s nothing more to come
105:58
there’s nothing wrong
105:59
I say aha so this is a very significant
106:03
station along the way in fact I’d say
106:06
from my experience it’s the most
106:08
significant station along the way
106:11
because it takes away or is the ending
106:13
of a resistance with life
106:16
yeah I would agree with the honor there
106:21
are so many versions of liberation
106:23
awakening enlightenment personally I
106:25
wouldn’t put enlightenment as the that
106:27
term in this case but I agree with you
106:30
that’s absolutely critical and essential
106:32
I would call it awakening myself hmm but
106:36
but even it is is very subtle and what
106:44
it actually yeah when you try to define
106:46
it what it actually is can very much
106:50
elude definition you can have certain
106:53
levels of apparent acceptance and then
106:56
like for my own experience there was a
106:58
time where it was almost like he’d
107:02
accidentally started doing me and I’d
107:05
then discovered that my previous notion
107:07
of like I am in acceptance it’s
107:10
completely dissolved in a way that’s
107:13
almost impossible to define it was
107:16
almost just waking up and finding one
107:19
day and finding out that that isn’t
107:20
there and my whole notion of that I’d
107:23
been any part of the process was just
107:25
looked silly
107:27
you know it’s yeah well any part of the
107:29
process as a separate independent do or
107:31
as the as the controller of it right
107:33
yeah almost like as you said the ground
107:35
was just kind of cracked and broken
107:37
somewhere along the line I didn’t even
107:39
notice that bit I didn’t even notice how
107:41
that happened you know it’s almost like
107:42
I didn’t I’d invited the process to
107:44
begin and then the process finally took
107:46
its own logic without my doing in the
107:49
sense yeah and yet they were at the same
107:52
time they’re still vestiges of
107:53
personhood as you described that is just
107:55
perfectly intact and it’s it’s almost
107:58
mysteriously but they don’t wouldn’t
108:01
want to go in and define a two to two
108:02
triggers but they don’t those vestiges
108:05
of personhood don’t create any problem
108:07
they’re not well at least the ones I’m
108:10
talking about are what I would call
108:12
biological and not psychological and so
108:14
the broader has preferences every one I
108:19
would say continue Stepford the
108:21
attachment to the preference being
108:22
delivered Falls away but the preference
108:25
itself stays so the preference
108:27
isn’t in itself problematic to our peace
108:30
of mind our attachment to the preference
108:33
being delivered is so if that falls away
108:36
we see that the problematic aspect of
108:40
the person has fallen away but the
108:43
individuality remains and it doesn’t
108:47
cause a problem in fact I say wow what a
108:49
what a blessing that the individual
108:51
individuality remains without the aspect
108:54
of the individual that used to disturbed
108:57
living life right which brings that
109:00
sense of like it always was this way
109:02
it’s just quite natural to be a human
109:05
being so to speak and and thank God you
109:08
know because this is where where we
109:09
appear to be I mean to me it’s always
109:11
like the fan keeps turning there may be
109:13
problem so I mean I wouldn’t pretend
109:15
that I never have any problems of any
109:17
kind but they just don’t kind of then
109:21
stick real hard I just can’t it’s just
109:23
it functions differently you know mm-hmm
109:25
strange kind of mixed-up way I like a
109:29
kind of an in turn a chiral process of
109:31
integration then just kind of seems to
109:34
you yes so I hear what you’re saying and
109:37
I know you’re speaking from experience
109:40
exactly what the nuances of your
109:42
experience are we can’t tell from a talk
109:45
but so Ramesh used to say enlightenment
109:48
is not a certifiable event don’t certify
109:51
that you’re enlightened but he gave and
109:56
I will give because it’s the definition
109:58
yeah a way that we can certify it for
110:00
ourselves and certifying it for yourself
110:03
doesn’t do anything other than confirm
110:06
and allow the seeking to stop even more
110:10
if it hasn’t completely stopped and
110:12
Ethan it’s very simple enlightenment is
110:14
the end of suffering if suffering has
110:16
ended on a continuous unbroken basis
110:19
meaning it doesn’t arise at all then
110:23
according to the definition of this
110:25
teaching you’re enlightened and is it
110:28
going out and telling people serves no
110:31
purpose because actually that
110:33
enlightenment delivers the results an
110:35
internal result which is your own
110:37
freedom from suffering and if we feel
110:39
like we’re going out need
110:41
to tell people then that’s probably part
110:43
of the attachment to outcome that hasn’t
110:46
dissolved and it will feel uncomfortable
110:47
which means suffering hasn’t really
110:49
ended I’m so to the extent that we see
110:52
that we can confirm it for ourself and
110:55
the only purpose of confirming it for
110:57
our self is to deepen the realization
111:01
that it’s got nothing to do with the
111:03
pleasures we receive from out there so
111:05
it’s not about telling the world and in
111:08
order to receive gratification it’s
111:12
almost like an expression to oneself
111:14
which i think is also in the teaching is
111:17
almost like you because in a way you’re
111:21
moving further away from the logic of
111:23
the world that apparently surrounds you
111:25
so there is a certain amount of self on
111:28
certain levels of yourself a self
111:29
validation that’s an entirely internal
111:32
process mm-hmm does that make sense
111:36
but by this by the comprehension it’s
111:40
yeah different levels of yourself have
111:42
to get it so that the the suffering of
111:44
disconnect between yes which to me in
111:54
the description is the attachment to
111:57
outcomes being a particular way so I
112:01
find this is my my sort of define is
112:05
that we can describe this efficiently
112:11
once the working mind really hones in on
112:15
what has changed what specifically the
112:19
changes refining for ourself which to me
112:24
is part of the integrating and part of
112:27
the deepening of the process maybe that
112:29
even happens after peace of mind where
112:33
we really find so if someone says to me
112:35
you know we can’t talk about this I said
112:37
we can someone says well you can talk
112:40
about it but you it’s it’s not going to
112:42
come close to the thing itself either
112:44
well um what we can do is become very
112:48
clear on a lot of the specific dynamics
112:51
and describe them accurately
112:54
which isn’t ever going to be the piece
112:56
itself but there can be a relevance to
113:03
describing it to the extent that it
113:05
assets assists the working line so I’m
113:09
I’m happy with the fact it’s a mystery
113:12
really we’re not going to know but then
113:15
we can describe what in practical terms
113:18
changes without holding that description
113:21
absolutely