01-17-2019 Roger Castillo – does the world exist or not?

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so as usual I’d like to start by putting
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the talks in context as it’s really easy
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for our thinking process to lose focus
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and for us to lose focus in our seeking
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we can spend years and years maybe even
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a whole lifetime seeking without a focus
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and as I see it and from what I’ve
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experienced if there is a focus and if a
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number of variables that we’re not in
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control of line up the seeking doesn’t
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have to take lifetimes
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so the focus of the talks is happiness
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for the human being in this life in
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daily living the reason that that’s the
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focus is because whether we realize it
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or not what we’re really looking for is
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happiness something very practical but
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if we leave that as the focus I haven’t
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really given us much to focus on because
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our understanding of the word happiness
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which is what we’ve been seeking
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basically since we were very small is
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not the happiness that is available
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through the spiritual search so we have
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an idea that happiness is happiness
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through outcomes happiness through
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circumstance happiness through pleasure
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essentially a good feeling about
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something we’re engaging in sometimes
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because of what we’re engaging in like
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the taste of a strawberry now that’s not
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happiness for the human being yet we
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seek pleasure pleasure pleasure thinking
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that that is where my happiness is going
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to be found thinking that when life
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looks a certain way at some time in the
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future when I have enough financial
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stability when I’ve met my soulmate when
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my health is better that then I’ll be
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happy so in the talks what I’m putting
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forward is a whole lot of concepts
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descriptions and it isn’t sufficient for
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us to hear the description and just
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believe it that is how the human mind
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tends to work it takes a lot of things
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for granted really the descriptions are
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there as sort of labels almost like as
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if you wake up in the morning and
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there’s a sticky label on the fridge
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each concept could be written on a
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sticky label and
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let’s say you’re interested in what the
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concept on the fridge is going to be
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today there’s a new one each day so the
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two hour talk if we understand is it’s a
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whole lot of concepts strung together
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pointers so a concept is really it’s a
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description so we say the Apple is red
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it’s a concept it may be accurate it may
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be inaccurate the Apple might be green
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and so if we can use the concepts and
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relate to the concepts as descriptions
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as pointers not as prescriptions not as
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something to do and automatically
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because a deeply ingrained belief of
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doership is ingrained in us when we have
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a description given to us we often hear
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it as a prescription so for example if I
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say that happiness is available that’s a
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description I’m not telling you to go
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and get happiness the doer will hear
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happiness is about so he goes okay so
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tell me some more how do I get it how do
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I do it that’s that’s an overlay on the
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description and then it says happiness
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is available in the form of peace of
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mind description happiness is available
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in the form of peace of mind peace of
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mind isn’t the addition of something
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it’s the absence of the falling away of
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suffering description suffering in
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practical terms arises in the form of
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guilt and blame and pride description
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guilt is an attitude that we have
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towards a circumstance an attitude where
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someone or where we deliver when we act
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and what comes out the outcome is
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painful to our self or to the other and
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then guilt is the addict
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Jude towards that action that sees
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myself is the orchestrator the doer the
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one that was in complete control of how
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the action happened then what the
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outcome was and then a sense of feeling
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unworthy feeling not good enough feeling
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like we should have acted differently
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and a whole story about that that can go
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on for years so that’s a description of
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guilt so the whole talk is a set of
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descriptions and it’s not good enough to
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just hear them it’s about really
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investigating each description to
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understand what it really means
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investing in investigating it based on
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your own experience in daily life while
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you’re walking through the streets while
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you’re talking to a friend while you’re
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watching television while you’re sitting
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in a restaurant that’s daily life and
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there’ll be plenty of opportunity to
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investigate the concepts that are put
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forward because the concepts are all
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concepts about daily life and
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specifically concepts about daily life
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as they relate to the topic of happiness
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for the human being in daily life and as
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we investigate it for ourselves
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meaning we use the pointer as a guide as
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to what to look at and then when we find
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it when we see it in action and what we
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see in action is usually complex in a
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sense and we start to see its dynamics
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we start to see oh yes the content of
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this thinking process is such such and
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such just like the concept says so we
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put a tick next to the concept not
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because someone has said so but because
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we’ve investigated based on our own
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experience and the more ticks near a
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concept the more the understanding is
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sinking from the intellectual level to
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the heart you could say
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so at first you may not know something
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it may be new to you and you hear it
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intellectually and so that’s interesting
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I understand it intellectually but I
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don’t really know it to be true to be
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accurate and as we tick it off more and
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more and it’s something that we’ve
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become familiar with year in and year-out
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or day in and day out then if someone
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asks us about that concept with oh yeah
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of course I it’s very simple it’s like
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this because we’ve seen it over and over
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again most before seeing it we sort of
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understand it intellectually but we
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don’t know it a bit like your name you
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know your name it’s just you don’t and
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your house you know you have your house
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when you’re in your house you don’t need
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to keep reminding yourself you’re in
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your house you know it’s your house it’s
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become second nature and that’s what the
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understanding that the conceptual
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framework can sink down deeper and
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deeper from intellectual to knowing
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where the thinking process no longer
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really needs to function
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and as the understanding goes deeper and
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deeper the practical effect of that is
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that the suffering that arises from time
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to time which is always attitudinal to
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circumstance and not circumstance itself
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that’s a very important concept in the
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teaching that happiness for the human
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being is happiness through peace of mind
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peace of mind is the absence of
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suffering and suffering is not the
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circumstance the circumstances either
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pleasure or pain suffering is always our
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attitude to the circumstance and so what
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is the attitude that we generally have
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about ourself in life about ourself and
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the other that leads to this continuous
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wave of suffering in this set of
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descriptions we’re told that the
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attitude that leads to suffering is an
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attitude of personal doership and
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attachment to outcomes and peace of mind
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is when that attitude of personal – of
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an attachment to outcomes falls away is
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dissolved is its dissolved because it’s
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seen to be inaccurate and who sees it to
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be inaccurate
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it’s the very machine that includes the
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inaccuracies that comes to see the
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inaccuracies in itself and when the
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machine sees the inaccuracies in itself
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it starts reformatting the information
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within itself how can the machine come
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to see the inaccuracies only if the
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machine is programmed with new
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information that allows it to see the
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inaccuracy and the Machine I’m talking
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about is the human brain or let’s not
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limit it to the brain the human
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biological instrument the body the brain
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with all of its complexity and so the
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attitude of personal doership and the
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attitude of attachment to outcome when
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it’s ingrained in our system when it’s
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part of our makeup and we didn’t create
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our makeup we are a result of our makeup
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so to speak life put our design in place
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life created the body which started to
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grow and life started to condition the
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body from the time of conception and at
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a certain point when we were when we’re
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born and brain has developed to a point
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that it understands language it starts
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to get conditioned by the humans around
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us that tell us what we should and
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shouldn’t do what life is about and what
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it isn’t we get conditioned by the
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family we grow up in by the school we go
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to the friends we make the political
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situation in the place that we live the
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religious community that we become a
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part of all of that becomes forms from
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which new conditioning are delivered to
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us moment after moment after moment and
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that new conditioning gets added on to
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the conditioning that has gone before
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and we
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called the cumulative effect of that
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conditioning our up-to-date-conditioning
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and the up-to-date-conditioning exists
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simultaneous to the genetic structure of
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the body so the human being on a
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biological and psychological level is
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essentially a combination of two factors
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the genes and up-to-date-conditioning
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that life put in place so if we take a
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snapshot of each of us now we are
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essentially a cumulative effect of the
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genes and up-to-date-conditioning and in
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each moment we are one way a instrument
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designed by life amazingly complex and
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intricate because life has a power
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intelligence a creative capacity well
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beyond what our human intellect can
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imagine it’s it’s here it’s it’s created
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us we are an extrusion of life so the
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complexity that we can see is a design
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of life
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so this attitude of personal doer ship
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and attachment to outcome is part of our
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design for as long as it’s part of our
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design and what is the attitude of
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personal doership an attachment to outcome
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and the attitude of personal doership is
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just simply a belief about how things
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work how the human being works
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that’s about as simply as I could put it
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a belief that I am a separate
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independent entity in complete control
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of everything I think they feel and do
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so it means that that belief sees the
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human being as an entity that is
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isolated in a sense an independent
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entity an entity that has complete
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volition meaning can choose of its own
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absolute unaffected free will so that’s
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how we see ourselves that’s how we see
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the other it’s a belief system that’s
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been put in place by Life part of our
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genes and up-to-date-conditioning and if
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that belief is in place no matter how
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hard we try to not blame the other no
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matter how hard we try to feel
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self-confident to feel worthy to feel
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like we fit in we won’t be able to for
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the simple fact that in combination with
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attachment to outcome which is the other
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deeply ingrained belief that says not
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only am I the doer not only am i the
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separate independent entity and
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therefore everyone else a separate
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independent entity but I require in
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order to be complete life to look a
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certain way life to be pleasure pleasure
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pleasure pleasure in line with my
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preferences because that’s the idea that
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we have about where our happiness will
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come from
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and so if that’s the deeply ingrained
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secondary attitude or second half of
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this attitude of doership an attachment
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to outcome whenever life delivers pain
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to us through our self actions that
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happen through us through the actions
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that happen through the other well even
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those actions that nature’s actions we
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are forced to feel shame and blame
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because of the deeply ingrained belief
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of personal doership and so no matter
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how hard we try not to blame the other
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no matter how hard we try to be at peace
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with ourself we can’t because the belief
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in personal doership has to kick in and
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say you should have done it differently
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you hurt me so now I hate you I should
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have I could have done it differently I
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didn’t so I’m just not good enough
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now often because this teaching puts the
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descriptions into practical terms in
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relation to the human beings it’s easily
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mistaken as being some sort of therapy
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or trying to fix the human being it’s
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understandable that that mistake happens
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when we hear the descriptions put out
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this way because we’ve heard a different
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form of teaching talking about
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enlightenment a teaching that for
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example says and I say this so that we
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can come to see that actually they’re
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not really saying something too
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different from each other a teaching
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that might say listen stop worrying
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about all of the workings of the human
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being
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stop worrying about your humaneness or
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the personhood that’s not what you are
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that’s the illusion that has been put in
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place the illusion that you are a human
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being that you are a person leave the
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person to function automatically you are
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that which is the witness of the person
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you are that which witness is not only
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the person but all the other people the
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whole of life what you are is formless
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unchanging unaffected by circumstance
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untouched by what happens in life
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remember yourself as there be still in
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silent allow the personhood to do its
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thing and so if we continue to in a
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teaching like that which I have great
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respectful these teachings are profound
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at some time we have to come and see
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them as a methodology there is a whole
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lot of oh there’s a phase in
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spirituality that actually knows people
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quite deluded hopefully that delusion
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gets corrected I’ve seen some people
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stay in their phase for quite a long time
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but that too is part of life so why I’m
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pointing this out is that if a teaching
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creates a distinction between what is
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real and what is unreal what is real and
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what is illusory what you are and what
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you are not it is a great opportunity a
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great way of bringing about a letting go
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of that which has been described as
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illusory or unreal letting go and
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allowing that which we are not to
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function automatically
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so each time that there is an
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involvement happening in something to do
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with the person the thought can arise
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actually this is not who I am I am NOT
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that I am the witness to all of that and
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that creates a new wiring in the neural
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structure of the brain ironically we
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think that the non person is is being
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spoken to and that the shift is a shift
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where we come to know ourself as not the
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body whereas in fact as I see it based
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on very close examination of the
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processes it happens for me without us
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even knowing it at certain points these
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teachings are affecting the person the
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psychology and they’re affecting it in a
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very important way there needs to be a
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shift in the brain such that the brain
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can take us the awareness can take a
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step back and so when we start talking
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about guilt and blame and pride it seems
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like now we’re talking about the person
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and that’s not what enlightenment or
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liberation about liberation and
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enlightenment is about seeing that we
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are not the person and grounding in that
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and finding that when we’re not
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concerned with the person were free and
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if we come to listen to the pointers the
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point is the same something that can
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allow the thinking mind to relax the
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pointers are saying that the human being
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is which is what we are the human being
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what we will always be even when there
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are shifts that feel experientially and
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qualitatively different
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shifts where we qualitatively feel like
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I am not the body I am everywhere I am
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formless those are shifts of the person
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they’re not a shift from illusion into
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reality so what this teaching framework
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is saying is not in a way different from
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what the other one is doing they’re just
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different methodologies to bring about
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the same outcome the human being is part
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of a predetermined story of life life is
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unfolding each moment exactly as it’s
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destined to unfold a tree a leaf falls
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off a tree and at exactly the point it’s
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destined to fall off the tree according
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to this magnificent story of life and
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the path that the leaf takes to get to
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the ground is the path destined in this
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story of life and whatever the human
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being does at any point in time is part
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of that predestined story of life and
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how that predestined story of life
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unfolds is through everyone having a
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very specific makeup at every point in
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time a makeup that forces the individual
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to function one way the way that they’re
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destined to function in that moment so
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it’s saying the human being is
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essentially divine if you want to call
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life divine we could drop the word
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divine divine instrument through which
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life is functioning shaped specifically
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by life to function exactly the way we
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function and that life has included in
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us that belief
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that is contrary to this a belief that
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says no I am a separate independent
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entity with complete volition to choose
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exactly what I say and what I do in each
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moment and therefore with that belief
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whatever I say and do and how I act is
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interpreted through our lens and seemed
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to be my action and the others action
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and so with that hypnosis in place a
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hypnosis that makes us see ourself as
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the doer then we’re forced to get
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heavily involved in everything that’s
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happened everything that’s happening
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judging it regretting it expecting and
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if that hypnosis falls away if it’s
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understood that life will always unfold
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as its destined to unfold that there is
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a biological intelligence in the body
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that functions on its own that I am NOT
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the controller of that I don’t need to
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be vigilant at every moment in order for
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the body to continue to function in life
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if the belief in personal doership
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starts to dissolve a great relaxation
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comes in what a relief
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I’m not charged with having to be the
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monitor of my life and the rest of life
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what a relief that those things that
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didn’t turn out as well as I would have
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liked in the past were not something
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that I as a separate independent entity
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were responsible for
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and those things that other people did
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that turned out out of line with my
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preferences or society’s preferences
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they too weren’t something that I have
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to hold judgment towards now at this
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point I just like to introduce the fact
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that seeing life this way doesn’t mean
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that we become irresponsible
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cold-hearted lack lacking in the
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motivation to act because when a certain
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attitude falls away the biological
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intelligence remained so if in a moment
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we see then life functioning through me
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according to my genes and
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up-to-date-conditioning delivers an
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outcome that hurts someone delivers pain
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to them not my intention and yet it
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happens there’s nothing in us that stops
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us when the belief in personal doership
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or attachment to outcomes falls away so
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that means when we see that I am NOT
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responsible for what has happened as a
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separate independent entity that’s
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essentially how we come to see life when
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the beliefs fall away and when that’s
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happened and nonetheless we function in
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a way that delivers pain to someone and
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they’re hurt there’s no reason why a
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biological intelligence can’t arise
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where we say oh look I didn’t realize
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that that was going to hurt you and I’m
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very sorry for having hurt you
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now at the beginning when the belief in
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personal doer ship is being eroded
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sometimes as part of the eroding of the
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belief in personal doership we find
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movement that isn’t really that in line
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with what it really looks like when the
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belief has been completely dissolved and
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there’s an integration that has happened
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and so we might say things like well you
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know you got hurt because it was
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destined for you to get hurt and a
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sensitivity isn’t really quite there yet
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a biological intelligence that
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understands the paradox of things that
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actually in this life I have to live I
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am the character I am the human being
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and I need to function in life as if I
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am the doer not pretending but when I
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look at how life happens I see that I
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find myself in a circumstance and
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according to the circumstance at hand at
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hand
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functioning happens in it feels like I
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am the one functioning and that feeling
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that I am the one that has the capacity
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to reach for a glass of water and take a
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sip is a gift that’s the gift of the
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feeling of free will so we continue to
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have to live life until the body dies
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interacting with humans life is
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essentially inter human relationship and
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the paradox is that we see that yes I am
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the one living life and yet deeply also
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appreciate the fact that I am living
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life according to my design and
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therefore having seen that I have hurt
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someone not necessarily my intention I
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understand it couldn’t have happened
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differently and then I see an apology
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happening understanding that that too
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couldn’t have happened differently and
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so from that perspective a paradox that
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is the best of both worlds where we
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continue to live as if we are the human
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being feeling like we’re the human being
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interacting in life inter human
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relationship and to me that is where the
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deep realizations that happen along the
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way deep realizations that are allow us
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to see the automatic movement of life
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allow us to see the impersonalness on a
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certain level of life they have to be
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integrated back into living as a human
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being as a person and yet we come back
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to know ourself as the person with quite
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a different appreciation for what the
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person is compared to before the seeking
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started
33:03
so the freedom in practical terms is the
33:07
freedom from the arising of suffering
33:11
the arising of guilt blame pride worry
33:14
and expectation all of which is
33:17
attitudinal to circumstance meaning all
33:20
that load of guilt and blame is always
33:23
our attitude to what has happened how we
33:27
relate to what has happened and if we
33:31
start watching it will see that guilt
33:33
blame and pride based on the deeply
33:35
ingrained belief that I am the doer a
33:37
separate independent entity in complete
33:40
control and the other is the doer and
33:44
when pain is delivered through myself or
33:47
the other we have to blame or feel guilt
33:50
and when positive outcomes are delivered
33:53
through my actions then I have to feel
33:55
pride look what I have achieved look
33:58
what I’ve done
33:59
aren’t I a good doer separate
34:02
independent entity now pride is less
34:05
heavy than guilt and blame but it’s
34:07
based on the same principle it’s still
34:09
based on a forgetting who we are it’s
34:12
still based on an identity that is out
34:16
of line with the functioning of life and
34:22
so how does that belief in personal doer
34:25
ship get dissolved it gets dissolved and
34:29
the terminology that we’re using is that
34:31
the belief in personal doership and
34:33
attachment to outcome is contained in
34:36
the thinking mind so that’s just a
34:40
conceptual name for a part of the mind
34:44
let’s say that has these beliefs as its
34:48
as its base and that gets uprooted that
34:53
belief system gets uprooted as the
34:55
working mind which is another part of
34:58
the mind that’s saying gets given
35:00
information and as that information is
35:04
investigated and seemed to be accurate
35:09
and there’s a realization Wow I never
35:11
noticed this before and now I’m noticing
35:15
it it’s accurate
35:16
and so now by default I have to start
35:19
seeing life more and more like that and
35:21
as we see life more and more like that
35:24
we start seeing that when the thinking
35:27
mind kicks in the old story which we now
35:31
don’t believe to be true is happening
35:33
and depending on how deeply ingrained
35:37
the old beliefs are the story will
35:39
happen the working mind may throw up an
35:42
appropriate concept that cuts off the
35:45
work of the thinking mind and if it
35:48
doesn’t have the power to cut off the
35:50
thinking mind in that moment which as
35:52
many of you know there are periods where
35:54
doesn’t matter what concept arises the
36:00
suffering of the thinking mind is so
36:02
intense that it remains so at some point
36:05
the working mind may actually come to
36:08
understand that witnessing the suffering
36:12
allowing it to be there as a happening
36:14
is an improvement that resisting it is
36:18
just adding more resistance on top of
36:21
the resistance and so this process
36:24
starts to happen as the body mind
36:27
organism starts to be reprogrammed in a
36:31
sense new conditioning comes in and
36:34
changes the up-to-date conditioning and
36:39
the explanation is the one given the
36:43
explanation that is the basis on which
36:45
we see we’re not the doer is that the
36:48
sperm and the egg came together and the
36:51
organism started growing and the growing
36:55
was not in our control and we continue
36:58
to grow cells are dying and being
37:02
regenerated each moment and that
37:09
biological organism the genetic part is
37:13
never existing in life independently
37:16
it’s always existing as an organism that
37:20
has been conditioned moment after moment
37:22
in life and they’re the two factors that
37:25
make us who we are in each moment and we
37:27
have
37:28
function according to those two factors
37:31
if we can find a third factor that is a
37:35
factor that we are in control of that
37:39
determines who we are in each moment
37:42
then the theory goes out the window but
37:44
until we find a third factor that is a
37:47
factor then we’re in control of then we
37:50
have to come and come to see that what
37:51
we are as a human being functioning each
37:54
moment is a result of factors that are
37:57
out of our control
37:58
so how can we then claim ownership of
38:01
the outputs from an instrument that we
38:09
didn’t create we can only do that if the
38:14
instrument is created to have the error
38:20
whereby the instrument sees it itself as
38:25
something different to what it is sees
38:28
itself as an autonomous independent
38:31
entity which it simply cannot be is one
38:35
with life it is never insulated from
38:38
life so the falling away of the belief
38:43
in personal doership also reveals our
38:45
connection to source
38:52
because not only are we a biological
38:56
instrument and a psychological
38:58
instrument but we’re an instrument
39:00
through which consciousness functions so
39:04
the human being is the impersonal
39:06
consciousness of source linked to this
39:09
biological psychological instrument
39:13
created by life and when the impersonal
39:17
consciousness and the instrument come
39:19
together what results is personal
39:22
consciousness personal consciousness is
39:26
that which is functioning through the
39:30
human being and allows us to be aware of
39:32
life to be aware of ourselves so
39:39
attention on the personal consciousness
39:42
that which is always there in life
39:45
whenever we are in the waking state is
39:52
crucial we’ve lived our whole life in
39:56
the waking state in dream state and in
39:59
deep sleep essentially three different
40:02
states and in the waking state and in
40:06
dreams in the dream state there is
40:09
always personal consciousness a
40:12
consciousness that allows us to be aware
40:15
of the world and of the person in the
40:21
world if that consciousness is taken
40:27
away just to give us an idea of how
40:33
significant consciousness is to our
40:36
daily life experience if consciousness
40:39
is taken away if there’s a button that
40:41
could be pressed that take someone’s
40:44
consciousness away there is essentially
40:46
it’s being given an anesthesia will be
40:50
knocked on the head by a baseball bat or
40:53
falling into deep sleep
40:58
if that happens if consciousness is
41:00
taken away what happens to our
41:01
experience of our self our experience of
41:05
life it collapses in back into nothing
41:12
so without consciousness there is no
41:16
happiness or life to talk of there is no
41:20
human being
41:29
so for all intents and purposes without
41:32
this being the truth because everything
41:35
that’s spoken about is a concept and the
41:37
concept can never be truth whatever
41:40
anyone has ever said whatever teaching
41:43
is put forward is a set of concepts not
41:45
the truth for all intents and purposes I
41:48
would say death is the absence of life
41:57
and I would suggest that relative to the
42:01
human being that is here now
42:04
death is more or less exactly the same
42:08
as deep sleep what a relief
42:14
I saw something recently as beautiful I
42:17
thought it said so and that I love
42:20
sleeping it’s like death without the
42:23
commitment
42:35
Daniel can you pass the micro
42:47
I’d like to make it sure whether I
42:51
understand correctly you said we don’t
42:56
have any free will but it appears to be
43:03
we create our own reality it appears to
43:08
be like that
43:09
that is totally illusion is it illusion
43:15
our desire if we follow our desire what
43:21
our impulse things happen it seems to be
43:27
like happening it’s not an illusion what
43:29
you’ve just described is the actual
43:31
dynamics of how life unfolds impulse
43:35
arises the thought arises and so a
43:41
thought I would like to go and visit
43:44
Australia and what comes next is not in
43:50
our control but often what comes next
43:54
after the thought I want to go and visit
43:56
Australia especially if the thought
43:57
comes up with enough conviction is a
44:00
movement towards the computer to
44:02
research what visas you need how much
44:04
the airline tickets are and at a certain
44:07
point all of that is essentially action
44:10
and thinking all arising and at some
44:14
point you may book a ticket and if
44:18
you’ve booked a ticket it often means
44:20
that at some point on the day of the
44:22
ticket you’ll find yourself going to the
44:24
airport
44:25
getting on the aeroplane and at some
44:28
point landing in Australia the trick is
44:31
where did the impulse where did the
44:36
thought come from and the belief in
44:42
personal doer ship takes that thought
44:46
that arose that impulse that arose to be
44:49
my thinking my impulse mine not as like
44:54
because it is I in the end I say it is
44:56
Roger
44:57
thought in practical terms and how we
44:59
experience it it is Rogers thought but
45:02
when we really look at it we see that
45:04
Rogers thought was really a result of
45:06
his genes and up-to-date-conditioning
45:07
and Rodger has to admit actually I
45:11
played no part in my jeans and my
45:14
up-to-date-conditioning so I will say
45:17
it’s my thought I will experience it as
45:19
my thought I will experience the
45:22
subsequent movement as my actions but
45:26
with a deep understanding that they’re
45:27
not my actions in the way that we
45:31
ordinarily relate to them where we see
45:33
that I am a separate independent entity
45:36
with complete volition to do whatever I
45:39
want and to choose according to my own
45:44
volition some desire come from a higher
45:54
source or a go window not Alex but if we
46:01
raise our conscience no desire come from
46:05
the more well you know there’s a lot of
46:10
concepts out there I’ve got lots of
46:14
concepts I put forward that isn’t a
46:16
concept I put forward it could fit into
46:19
a different teaching framework that will
46:22
introduce that concept for whatever
46:25
reason it deems to be purposeful in this
46:31
teaching we say actually we are the ego
46:34
the human being is the ego the ego is
46:40
essentially a result of the impersonal
46:42
consciousness linking to the body mind
46:44
organism and functioning through us as
46:46
personal consciousness will always be
46:50
the ego until the body dies there’s no
46:53
escape from ego Ness we are the ego and
46:59
then someone might say well this is very
47:01
strange
47:02
I’ve been told for a long time in many
47:05
many books that the ego is the problem
47:09
and the ego needs to die and what it
47:14
comes down to is a matter of terminology
47:17
and definition which is very important
47:19
for us to see now you know when we hear
47:22
about the ego it’s a word e-g-o what
47:24
does it mean what does it really refer
47:27
to it is not much definition in the word
47:31
ego so in this teaching we say actually
47:36
the human being is the ego you can have
47:40
an ego with the belief of personal
47:42
doership and attachment to outcome or an
47:45
ego where the belief in doership and
47:48
attachment to outcome has been
47:49
annihilated and so in the teachings that
47:53
talk about the dissolution or the death
47:56
of the ego when we look at them closely
48:00
what we see is that they’re really
48:01
talking about the dissolution of certain
48:04
belief identities and when those belief
48:09
identities crumble it can feel like the
48:15
person has dissolved it can feel like
48:19
I’m not here anymore
48:20
and the reason is because we have known
48:23
ourselves to be the doer and when that
48:27
is seen through the feeling is that
48:32
what I’ve known myself as is no longer
48:34
there but that doesn’t actually mean
48:39
that the person has dissolved the person
48:43
is still here the person had the insight
48:49
it was part of the person’s makeup that
48:53
has fallen away the belief in doer ship
48:56
and attachment to outcome and as a
48:59
result of that falling away there can be
49:02
a great spaciousness that happens a
49:05
great ease and it’s true it means that
49:09
there’s less thinking that says I need
49:11
this I am that
49:12
you did this to me I need to work hard
49:16
and do this and when all that thinking
49:18
is happening and essentially it creates
49:19
a solidified sense of who
49:22
I am because the thinking contains
49:24
within it the the body and the
49:28
attachment to what the body needs and so
49:31
when that thinking is happening we feel
49:34
sort of very constricted because of all
49:37
that and when that falls away and we can
49:42
walk through streets without any
49:46
thinking if it’s not necessary really
49:48
maybe you see a tree and it’s a nice
49:51
tree and this self-referencing in its
49:55
psychological form has fallen away it
49:58
doesn’t really mean the person the
50:00
person is still walking down the street
50:01
they just have a different psychology
50:04
now and so the experience is
50:06
qualitatively different and so when I
50:10
hear people saying something like I oh
50:11
no you don’t understand the person
50:13
there’s no more person in me and I
50:18
understand what’s happening there’s a
50:19
process happening and the intellect
50:22
hasn’t really quite caught up with what
50:26
has happened with the specifics of what
50:29
has happened and thankfully not too many
50:34
of those people are attracted to the
50:39
talks because it can get very difficult
50:41
when that’s the case because actually
50:47
ironically they feel like they’re
50:50
completely free of belief that that is
50:52
what their liberation is and yet there
50:55
are these subtle or not so subtle
50:57
spiritual beliefs that still need to be
51:00
dissolved and to me that’s what Ramana
51:04
was talking about when he says used this
51:06
the one to remove the thorn embedded in
51:08
your thumb which the thorn embedded in
51:10
the thumb is essentially a concept that
51:12
has become a belief so a concept that
51:16
has become a belief means a concept that
51:19
has taken to be absolute and once that
51:22
happens it’s now becomes part of our
51:24
system that we will defend because we’re
51:26
holding the concept as absolute it’s
51:28
embedded in our thumb so he said use
51:32
this thorn which refers to a spiritual
51:34
concept
51:35
to uproot that one so the belief that
51:40
you are the doer use this concept which
51:44
in some cases doesn’t say you are not
51:46
the doer it says you’re not the person
51:48
use it to uproot that belief but then be
51:51
sure to throw both thorns away now he
51:54
says that not because we’re going to
51:56
throw both thorns away but because he
51:57
knows that the second thorn the concept
52:00
the spiritual teaching he’s going to get
52:03
embedded in the thumb so it’s a warning
52:05
to keep have a look see if it’s got
52:08
embedded in the thumb see if you forgot
52:11
to throw that thorn away which is not
52:13
really something you do because the
52:14
whole thing is a process that happens so
52:18
the uprooting of the first belief
52:22
happens and then the embedding of the
52:25
spiritual concept happens so going back
52:27
to your question do some impulses come
52:32
from a higher source and I would say no
52:34
all of the impulses come from the human
52:37
being the ego but when the belief in
52:41
personal doership and an attachment to
52:43
outcome has fallen away what we find is
52:46
that the motivation for a human being to
52:51
act a certain way falls away with it
52:55
blame includes a lot of hatred in it and
53:01
so we tend to often want to get revenge
53:06
and try to even the score when someone
53:10
has done something to hurt us and the
53:12
belief in doership and attachment to
53:14
outcome is there and when we believe
53:18
that our happiness is to be found in
53:21
outcomes we want more and more and more
53:24
that becomes our attitude and so we want
53:26
more at the cost of the other
53:29
and so wars are fought over the
53:34
principles that are put in place because
53:36
of the belief of doership and
53:37
attachment to outcome and so as that
53:42
starts to fall away what happens is that
53:46
the
53:48
actions that happen through us become
53:51
much more purely biological and they
53:56
don’t have the the the doership intent
54:01
and so often if people are hearing the
54:05
talks and they said well you know this
54:06
is not such great news for the world if
54:09
you told everyone that they weren’t the
54:11
doer and that their happiness isn’t to
54:14
be found in outcomes that’s gonna result
54:16
in a disastrous world because their
54:18
thinking mind imagines that imagine if I
54:23
stop trying to control everything then
54:27
who knows what I would become whereas
54:31
actually in practice what happens is
54:33
when those aspects of doership and
54:36
attachment fall away an amazing
54:39
biological intelligence is allowed to
54:41
function a biological intelligence that
54:45
isn’t interested in seeing the other
54:49
suppress isn’t interested in seeing
54:53
myself elevated in order to feel more
54:57
worthy isn’t interested in having more
55:01
than is needed is interested in seeing
55:06
everyone happy and don’t necessarily
55:13
misconstrue that to the point where the
55:16
altruism that I’m talking about is of a
55:19
saintly level either we’re talking about
55:23
a very simple equanimity and so in
55:28
practice if in an instant with a belief
55:32
in personal doership and attachment to
55:34
outcome were to dissolve in the whole
55:36
world then a lot of the problems that
55:40
we’re trying to solve by finding
55:43
solutions will get solved on their own
55:47
and so what we realize when we look at
55:49
it this way we said we’re never going to
55:50
find real solutions for the problem in
55:53
the world because we’re saying let’s
55:56
maintain the base principle on which the
56:00
problem
56:01
stems from and then let’s try and fix
56:05
the problem up here so the problems of
56:09
the world are going to be fixed when the
56:14
doership and attachment starts to get
56:18
dissolved it could actually happen very
56:20
quickly once enough people start
56:24
realizing this and once children are
56:29
born into families where these
56:31
principles are encouraged where when a
56:35
child functions according to their genes
56:38
and up-to-date-conditioning they are
56:40
corrected in a healthy way with an
56:42
understanding about the principles at
56:47
play the development of the human being
56:49
will be radically different with not
56:51
much more effort but until that becomes
56:56
the balance of power shifts things are
57:00
going to remain the way they are the
57:01
great news is that the teaching says our
57:03
happiness isn’t dependent on life
57:05
changing as long as the change happens
57:08
within us then we understand that the
57:11
flow of life is always going to be
57:13
pleasure and pain often pain delivered
57:16
through the actions of the other and
57:19
there’s an equanimity and a peace with
57:22
that because our happiness is
57:23
attitudinal so in coming back to your
57:28
questions all right in 20 minutes I
57:31
would say that all of the impulses
57:37
impulses arising within the human being
57:42
from the gene based on the genes and
57:46
up-to-date-conditioning
58:04
okay I just have one question about
58:08
where the ego would go when the body
58:10
dies it’s gone too so it doesn’t come
58:15
back in a different form
58:17
not according to this concept because
58:20
the ego is the result of impersonal
58:22
consciousness linking to the body mind
58:25
organism and then the ego is really the
58:28
result the personal consciousness that
58:32
well it’s the combination of the
58:34
personal consciousness and the body as a
58:37
we can talk about them as separate but
58:39
really we’re always one thing so if the
58:43
body dies there’s no question in my mind
58:46
of a Roger because Roger is a result of
58:50
the this filter it’s like white light
58:53
shining through a red filter coming out
58:58
as red light and the white light we
59:01
could say is the impersonal
59:02
consciousness of source the red filter
59:05
is the body in the mind and the red
59:08
light is the result of the impersonal
59:12
consciousness linking to that particular
59:15
instrument or filter and so the
59:21
essentially when the link happens it
59:24
becomes one unit and so if we look at
59:29
the red light you serve saying what
59:31
happens to the red light when the red
59:33
filter is no longer a red filter it’s
59:38
gone with the filter so what you’re left
59:41
with is in personal consciousness of
59:42
source which we will never know
59:45
according to this term this this
59:52
framework and it’s not really a friend
59:54
it’s my understanding put into framework
59:56
thing is that you know we think we can
59:59
awaken to impersonal consciousness what
60:02
which I wouldn’t say that that’s what it
60:06
what happened when we awaken and there
60:07
is a sense in meditation even if you go
60:11
into a deep meditation and the senses
60:13
withdraw and
60:16
the senses the sense of the body isn’t
60:18
there so in a deep meditation you’d say
60:21
well I have no experience of a body it
60:24
falls away especially if you’re sitting
60:26
still and and then the external sounds
60:29
can drop off from the experience and
60:34
essentially we could say that attention
60:36
has turned inwards into itself and what
60:44
remains in a meditation until it goes so
60:47
deep that it goes into the equivalent of
60:51
deep sleep is so when there is the
60:55
purpose for as long as personal
60:56
consciousness is there
60:57
in or let’s just say consciousness but
61:00
it is personal consciousness for as long
61:02
as consciousness is part of the
61:04
meditation which means there is
61:05
something to be aware of and the most
61:09
basic thing which is not a thing to be
61:13
aware of his awareness aware of itself
61:15
and awareness aware of us itself is
61:20
aware of the awareness and the sense of
61:22
existence I am but that basic beingness
61:28
doesn’t have any characteristics doesn’t
61:31
have an age or gender it doesn’t have
61:34
preferences or any of that because all
61:36
of that exists basically with the body
61:39
being present in the experience and in
61:41
that meditation the body essentially
61:44
isn’t part of the experience now that
61:48
doesn’t mean that the body doesn’t exist
61:49
it just means it no it doesn’t exist in
61:52
the experience and we could look at it
61:57
as the brain shutting down certain
62:00
faculties and therefore the experience
62:05
which we call the meditation experience
62:06
becomes simpler and simpler and simpler
62:09
the core of the human being is
62:12
consciousness and so in that meditation
62:15
the there will always be the core which
62:18
is awareness and beingness and so when
62:24
there is an awareness of that awareness
62:26
and beingness and then afterwards we
62:29
come back
62:29
and there’s a sensor memory of what that
62:34
was like we often would describe it as
62:38
impersonal because there wasn’t any
62:41
thinking that said I am a body I need
62:44
this and that or I need to go and buy
62:46
these vegetables to feed this body all
62:48
that’s fallen away in the mentation and
62:50
so it feels really impersonal and often
62:55
when people bump into that then it makes
62:58
sense that there’s the mistake in a
63:00
sense the intellectual mistake that says
63:01
oh I know I I know impersonal
63:05
consciousness whereas I would if we if
63:10
we’re being specific I would say that is
63:12
an impersonal form of personal
63:14
consciousness whatever we ever
63:17
experience is always as long as in
63:22
between the time of the body having been
63:24
born or conceived even and dying is
63:28
always a personal consciousness
63:31
experience the personal consciousness
63:33
experience can be devoid of the belief
63:35
in doership an attachment to outcome
63:37
which then makes it still a personal
63:39
consciousness experience but
63:40
significantly different to when the
63:43
belief in personal consciousness belief
63:45
in doer ship and attachment was there
63:47
the sense of being contracted of me as
63:51
opposed to the other there’s still going
63:54
to be the sense of I am a separate
63:57
entity but no longer seeing the other as
63:59
a competitor and an enemy we see it see
64:02
ourself as all brothers and sisters in
64:05
this universal game of life
64:18
yes when all of the aspects of the
64:23
person fall away and the aspects meaning
64:27
aspects within the experience so in
64:30
daily life experience generally we have
64:33
an awareness of the body and you know if
64:35
a mosquito bites us we can feel it and
64:37
brush it off and when we’re eating there
64:39
is a sense that of taste and in thoughts
64:44
which are personal thoughts so in the
64:48
daily life experience there is a
64:50
personal sense to the experience and the
64:55
personal sense is not the problem is the
64:59
aspect of the personal which I’m
65:02
referring to is the belief of doership
65:04
and attachment to outcome and so when
65:07
someone says well you know I guess that
65:09
this you know internally you have no
65:12
sense of a Roger I said well no there’s
65:14
very much a sense of a Roger Roger is
65:18
what has to continue to live its life
65:21
until the body dies it’s just that the
65:26
belief in doer ship and attachment to
65:29
outcome which now means I feel like I’m
65:31
being lived and see everyone else being
65:34
lived even when they’re doing things
65:36
that is out of line with my biological
65:39
preferences and so in a meditation when
65:42
the sense of Roger starts falling away
65:44
because certain objects of the
65:47
experience fall away then it becomes
65:53
much less personal and yet it’s still an
65:59
experience that’s happening through the
66:02
body because if someone were to come and
66:05
sorry to be graphic but shoot me in the
66:07
head while I’m sitting in meditation
66:10
with the experience that there is no
66:12
body with the experience that there is
66:16
just consciousness I would be correct in
66:21
saying that in the experience there was
66:22
no body and
66:25
fact is I would have the internal
66:27
experience of being just consciousness
66:29
someone came put a gun to my head shot
66:32
the body would die the experience that I
66:36
was having would die with the body and
66:41
that to me means that it’s a personal
66:44
consciousness experience that feels very
66:49
impersonal and so is happiness for the
66:56
human being living in meditation where
66:59
the person has fallen away no not
67:02
according to this set of concepts
67:07
pointers is the experience of happiness
67:12
or let’s go to more traditional
67:14
enlightenment the experience where we
67:17
walk through life and we have absolutely
67:20
no sense of being the person because the
67:25
brain has been trained in a sense to
67:28
shut down more than just the personal
67:31
doership and attachment to outcomes
67:32
which is something that can easily
67:34
happen through yogic practice I say no I
67:38
say that is part of the process of
67:42
dissolving the doer ship and attachment
67:47
outcome and then the brain has to turn
67:49
those faculties back on which is very
67:52
much a possibility at a certain point
67:54
come back and go I’m Roger and I want to
67:57
order this and and in it and we get to
68:01
live as Roger
68:03
but without suffering and when that’s
68:06
the case we can say of course this is
68:10
what I was always looking for it becomes
68:13
experientially known because there’s
68:15
nothing that comes up that has an issue
68:16
with the way life is even if there are
68:21
biological responses that can say no I
68:24
don’t like that don’t do it yeah
68:27
attitudinally there isn’t any feeling
68:30
inside of that being a problem and to
68:35
further push this point home and can you
68:38
imagine if
68:39
we all developed to the point where we
68:43
effectively have very minimal inter human
68:47
relationship because we’re in a state
68:51
where we hardly know our persons and
68:56
what if the whole world suddenly became
68:58
enlightened in that form I think it
69:02
would be a sort of almost sad experience
69:06
of enlightenment because everyone would
69:09
be essentially turned inward almost in
69:15
Samadhi meditation and where would the
69:19
inter human relationship be?
69:42
I just wanted to check something with
69:45
you I don’t know if it’s that valid I
69:49
just I’m just interested in hearing your
69:52
response I feel like in general everyday
70:06
living there’s no problem with feeling
70:10
like superficially yeah oh yeah like I’m
70:12
playing this character and that like
70:16
there is a joy who really does go places
70:18
and has friends relationships does
70:21
things interests whatever and I like I
70:25
really enjoy that play but like it
70:33
doesn’t feel that that is like the only
70:39
thing that is it doesn’t feel as real as
70:42
you know like the sense of presence or
70:45
awareness or like the the one that is
70:48
aware of like every experience or
70:50
happening and just now because I was
70:54
just checking with my experience when
70:55
you’re talking about you know being in
70:56
the in the body yeah like I would agree
71:02
I can definitely say that there’s a
71:03
there can be a sense of like a joy
71:05
sitting here and a Roger sitting there
71:06
and there being a cushion and like a
71:08
hard floor but at the same time it’s
71:16
just like free from any concept about
71:19
that or even that concept can be there
71:21
but just ignoring that concept even like
71:23
moment like momentarily then where’s the
71:26
actual distinction or separation like
71:30
without the mines selling the story of
71:33
distinction it feels to me that there
71:36
actually isn’t before the belief in the
71:40
idea that there is do you know what I
71:47
mean
71:49
so not exactly I don’t exactly follow I
71:54
did until just the last but so you’re
71:59
saying can I give you another example
72:00
sure like it’s just sort of an insight
72:05
or something that came just since being
72:08
here like the last few days it just kind
72:11
of came like Oh like really without the
72:14
minds interpretation of there being a
72:16
real difference between listening to for
72:19
example a dog barking in the background
72:21
someone coughing beside me like Roger
72:25
sharing satsang or like even like the
72:28
the mental noise or like thought
72:30
activity that without sort of really
72:35
distinguishing between them like where
72:38
is the space in which all of that is
72:39
being perceived hmm as I understand so I
72:45
understand the experience you’re
72:46
pointing out here when we when our
72:49
labeling becomes less absolute or as you
72:54
described when labeling falls away so
72:55
there’s a distinction because usually
72:58
what happens is our labeling is pretty
73:01
absolute and creates boundaries around
73:05
objects based on the way we have come to
73:09
see the world so when we label anything
73:12
it creates separation and an experience
73:14
of separation and so then we’re
73:18
encouraged as part of the methodology of
73:20
changing the way the brain relates to
73:26
everything and interprets everything to
73:28
stop labeling like we’re told that
73:32
labeling is actually condensing
73:34
something that is vast into something
73:38
very limited and you take the freshness
73:40
out of it and you also distort its true
73:44
nature
73:45
and so we’re encouraged to stop labeling
73:48
which is great you know you go right
73:50
you’ll spend years seeing yourself
73:53
lately and then reminding yourself to
73:55
stop labeling and it becomes meditations
73:58
become easier the space opens up because
74:00
we realize that there is
74:03
know that life is arising inside of us
74:10
right so don’t someone wants a hang on a
74:13
sec minute ago you said we are that ego
74:15
we are the person and now you’re saying
74:18
life arises inside of us the whole
74:20
universe the whole world I won’t say
74:23
universe in but the experience the
74:25
momentary experience arises inside of us
74:28
that’s you’re now going to the top down
74:31
teachings that say what we are is
74:34
consciousness let’s see if we have time
74:38
to go into the subject it’s a good one
74:39
yeah um how people can follow this is a
74:44
nuance that is really important to get
74:48
us out of the notion that we’re not the
74:50
body and hopefully it answers your
74:55
question along the way why is it that we
74:59
can have this experience of being
75:04
formless awareness located everywhere
75:08
and have the experience that life isn’t
75:13
being known from the perspective of
75:17
localized body and often we conclude
75:22
that this can be known because the whole
75:25
universe arises inside Brahman which is
75:28
what we are as that the whole universe
75:32
arises as a essentially a virtual
75:35
reality imagination in the mind of God
75:37
and that that is the substratum of the
75:44
universe that’s kind of how it’s feeling
75:47
or being perceived yes here exactly and
75:52
that is a shift that can happen and
75:53
often when that shift happens we are
75:56
forced to interpret it through the lens
76:03
of the methodology that brought that
76:05
shift about and as I spoke about in
76:09
order to bring certain shifts about
76:11
methodologies will tell us certain thing
76:13
which basically a way to that’s most
76:18
effective to change the functioning of
76:20
the brain now if we look at take life in
76:25
the sort of science traditional sense or
76:30
at least how we know it on a day-to-day
76:33
practical level which is that we are a
76:38
body in an objective world that’s how we
76:42
start off feeling we’re a body in an
76:43
objective world and that the world is
76:45
objectively real and the body is
76:47
objectively real and when that shift
76:49
happens the sense is that it’s not
76:52
objectively real and I’m not a body in
76:57
an objective world but rather the world
77:00
and the body arises in my subjectivity
77:06
and it’s a radical shift in identity in
77:12
a sense a shift from in neither get out
77:16
appointed to this a shift from feeling
77:18
you are a body in a world to knowing
77:21
that you are that in which the whole
77:22
world arises and that which the world is
77:25
made of um and so when that shift
77:29
happens it feels that way and so we
77:33
assume ah you know that truth that we
77:36
were told about is actually what life is
77:40
and seeing it as an objective reality is
77:43
the illusion I was told it was because
77:47
this shift happens so how can it be
77:50
explained how can that shift that
77:52
qualitative change be explained in a way
77:56
that still allows us to understand that
77:59
I am a human being yeah because it’s
78:07
like from this perspective like nothing
78:09
ever happened
78:10
there was no journey know that nothing
78:16
caused it yeah okay great
78:18
so we have some more food here for the
78:21
discussion we now just for the sake of
78:24
the recording and everything we’re going
78:26
into a sort of
78:27
exploration of the nature of experience
78:29
which is pretty in my mind profound and
78:33
important but we’re veering away from
78:35
the approach from a practical daily
78:37
living perspective but it’s very valid
78:41
and I think they need to support each
78:44
other from a practical perspective
78:46
like if you’re saying that what this
78:48
sort is just peace of like unbroken
78:50
peace of mind in daily living like this
78:52
also but even for the human being
78:55
I say unbroken peace in mind for the
78:58
human being in daily living so we just
79:00
add this a seeming and then that would
79:04
be yeah like yeah like the seeming human
79:08
being well I don’t know in a sense it
79:10
still feels like I’d like it like that
79:13
it’s coming back to a real human being
79:15
because to me that’s the integration is
79:17
coming back to it being a real human
79:19
being not just a seeming human being and
79:24
so how do we explain now the as I see
79:30
the truth of the matter is we’ll never
79:33
really know whether it’s an objective
79:35
world or appearance in the mind of God
79:41
or consciousness or everything is Brahman
79:43
because if it’s all an illusion
79:53
and appearance in consciousness
79:55
essentially that equates to the same as
79:58
a dream at night being if we look at it
80:01
from the perspective of the human being
80:03
real and there’s a dream at night the
80:05
dream with the dream character is an
80:07
appearance in the consciousness of the
80:09
person and once we wake up from the
80:13
dream we see it was all an illusion it
80:16
was all a story and imagination in
80:19
consciousness and the character doesn’t
80:22
really exist
80:23
only existed while the dream was
80:26
happening and so a dream is a great
80:29
analogy because we can relate to dream
80:32
we have a way of understanding a dream
80:35
so understanding the model everything is
80:39
Brahman
80:40
everything is an arising in
80:42
consciousness is easier if we can relate
80:44
it back to dream and see that the dream
80:48
analogy is essentially like a mirror
80:50
down version of what is pointed at when
80:54
we’re told all of this is an appearance
80:57
in consciousness all of this is a dream
80:58
it’s really saying that God has God mind
81:03
consciousness has imagined which means
81:07
imagined means thought into existence
81:10
all of this the story of life just like
81:13
when we’re asleep we say we have thought
81:16
into existence the dream story
81:21
it’s an imagination in consciousness so
81:25
what that theory is saying is that all
81:28
of this is a dream in the consciousness
81:31
of God and that God really is
81:33
consciousness that’s all God is or
81:35
awareness whatever word you want to use
81:39
source Brahman God and the top-down
81:46
teachings are pointing at the illusory
81:51
nature of what seems very objective they
81:55
do that by pointing at the transitory
81:57
nature of things how it’s always
81:59
changing and when our attention comes to
82:04
the present moment and what is also
82:08
brought into the picture is the
82:10
background of awareness in which
82:12
experience has to arise you can’t take
82:15
awareness and still be then what happens
82:18
is the whole experience starts to feel
82:22
much more phantom like in a sense much
82:25
less solid and we realize that what
82:28
seems like solid objects are actually
82:32
interdependent with awareness they arise
82:35
in the field of awareness and therefore
82:36
are made of awareness and so when
82:38
awareness bumps into itself we’re now
82:41
looking from the perspective of
82:46
awareness aware of that quality of
82:49
awareness and
82:52
we’re told along the way in those
82:55
teachings time doesn’t exist it’s a
82:56
concept time is a concept that arises in
83:00
the present moment and then we realize
83:02
that all there is is this this very
83:04
moment that you know me believing that
83:07
there was a past me believing that
83:09
there’s America and Europe out there
83:10
it’s a that’s just a belief system I
83:12
can’t prove that if I’m present with the
83:14
present moment there’s just this and
83:16
it’s always changing and that memory
83:19
about what I had for lunch is just a
83:22
thought concept it’s a thought object
83:24
arising in the present moment and in a
83:26
dream when the dream starts the
83:30
character comes into existence at the
83:32
time the dream pops into existence and
83:34
the character might be a 40 year old
83:36
woman or let me talk from I be a 45 year
83:40
old man and he’s just come into
83:43
existence with the dream world and then
83:46
when his friend comes up to him and say
83:48
hey you remember we went to high school
83:49
together
83:50
the in the dream the dream character has
83:54
a memory of being at school with this
83:58
person let’s say and so the sense of a
84:01
past is created in the present moment by
84:04
the existence of a thought memory but we
84:07
know that the dream just came into
84:09
existence in that moment this guy didn’t
84:12
exist except for when the dream popped
84:15
into existence
84:16
so he’s memory of being at school 25
84:22
years ago is illusory in a sense it’s
84:26
conceptual based it’s based on the
84:29
content of the dream so if we compare
84:32
memory itself can also change and yes
84:34
it’s so if we come back to this as being
84:37
potentially a dream and arising in
84:39
consciousness which is what the profound
84:42
awareness and non-duality teachings
84:45
often a pointing at which let me say I
84:49
have to keep saying this I have a huge
84:51
respect for them my process was that
84:53
process and I can talk that’s why I can
84:55
talk about it and and so it’s not a
85:00
criticism when we veer away from those
85:02
thing it’s not a criticism they all
85:04
dovetail into
85:05
each other they take over from each
85:07
other and they support each other and so
85:11
if the pointers point us into the
85:15
present moment and they say that you
85:16
know your memory is just an object
85:17
arising in this moment and if you don’t
85:20
have a if the present moment doesn’t
85:23
include any thought about the past any
85:26
expectation in the future where is it
85:30
and if we don’t believe a thought object
85:33
that says well of course there’s America
85:37
and all of these other countries then
85:40
we’re just with this and then everything
85:42
is spontaneous the bird is there and the
85:46
next moment it’s not
85:47
and if we’re present with the experience
85:49
it was there and then it’s not and where
85:52
has it gone because present with the
85:54
experience means no here and there just
85:57
here this is all there is this is life
86:01
and the truth is that life only ever
86:05
happens here and now and so bringing in
86:09
these concepts that there is no past and
86:12
no future that there is no here and no
86:16
there and actually there is no person
86:18
because the person is as fictitious as
86:21
the character in the night dream the
86:24
whole universe is as fictitious as the
86:28
universe in a dream at night and once
86:31
the dream is over
86:34
effectively we would look at and say
86:38
nothing happened because you’ve started
86:41
with nothing the manifestation happens
86:45
so there is everything and then the
86:46
manifestation returns and there’s
86:49
nothing so if nothing remains nothing
86:52
nothing ever happened so Ramana’s
86:56
ultimate concept from a certain
86:58
perspective is not only because I just
87:01
said there is nothing and then creation
87:03
happens manifestation and then
87:06
dissolution of creation happens and then
87:08
there is nothing right so we’re still
87:10
sort of talking linear and causal
87:13
time you know before creation during
87:17
creation and then after creation so he’s
87:19
ultimate concept there was no creation
87:22
there is no dissolution nothing ever
87:25
happened now is that ultimate truth No
87:32
No maybe so we become very convinced
87:38
sometimes that when certain shifts
87:41
happens that we know that this is all an
87:45
arising in the consciousness of God I
87:49
was even to know that conceptually like
87:52
that concept also doesn’t need to be
87:55
believed in mm-hmm it doesn’t but we
87:58
then have an experience that if someone
88:01
were to say to us well what is your
88:05
experience when we put it into words
88:09
like you might say that actually joy
88:11
doesn’t really exist right so if you use
88:14
those words you can then see are there
88:17
is even when I say the concepts have
88:20
dropped which they have in the moment
88:22
when someone’s not asking you you might
88:25
not be thinking anything in particular
88:28
you’re not thinking anything in
88:29
particular then when someone asks you
88:31
you see where your tendency goes and how
88:36
you answer and it suggests that there is
88:39
an influence or an interpretation of
88:42
what this all is based on our answer
88:45
that we give so I want to put forward do
88:50
we still have time I want to put forward
88:53
an explanation that is alternate to the
88:58
explanation that this is all an arising
89:00
in God’s mind that still allows for
89:09
those shifts in experience which happen
89:11
and their actual and the qualitative
89:14
shifts happen to be explained and so
89:18
that goes back to we start off with the
89:20
experience that there’s an objective
89:22
world with an objective human in it
89:24
and when we look at our experience which
89:27
we don’t tend to do in that we just have
89:30
the experience and so we think okay
89:34
there’s the experience but we don’t look
89:36
at how the experience is is generated or
89:39
said to generate based on the rules of
89:41
assuming this is an objective world and
89:44
the way the experience happens is that
89:47
there is the objective human being which
89:50
is this instrument the objective world
89:52
and light and so light bounces off the
89:57
objectively real object in in the
90:01
assuming this other model um and is
90:05
received by the objectively real body
90:08
through the eyes then the eyes changed
90:12
that information and not only the eyes
90:17
but the mechanism into data received by
90:20
the brain the way the eyes pick up the
90:24
object is actually inverted not the
90:29
right way round that inverted object is
90:32
then translated into data that the brain
90:35
can process the brain flips the image
90:39
round and then we experience what we
90:44
know as our daily life experience of
90:47
essentially objects when we look at this
90:52
explanation we see that what we know of
90:55
the world is actually an image of the
90:57
world and so we’ve just used sight being
91:00
one of the senses to demonstrate how an
91:04
information from an objectively real
91:06
external world is received by a body and
91:09
then processed by the brain and
91:13
projected onto a personal consciousness
91:16
a consciousness that belongs to the body
91:19
and so when we think of it that way this
91:24
whole experience is actually an
91:27
experience arising inside of our mind
91:31
and it’s an interpretation of an
91:36
external world arising in
91:38
and therefore experienced as if it’s
91:42
opening of a being in a world
91:45
experiencing the external world so I
91:49
don’t I hope people are following
91:50
basically if we take the objective
91:54
reality example even though we feel like
91:57
we are seeing what is outside of us
91:59
we’re actually seeing an image of what’s
92:01
outside of us that is appearing inside
92:03
of us
92:03
and so then it makes sense that our
92:08
experience of life is actually an
92:11
arising in consciousness an arising in
92:15
the consciousness of the human being
92:16
it’s a projection an image of an
92:19
external world arising inside our
92:20
consciousness so the experience we have
92:23
isn’t an experience of the actual
92:27
objective external world it is an
92:29
experience which is an image of the
92:32
external world and so it makes sense
92:36
that if that is how the what the
92:39
experience is an image arising inside
92:42
the consciousness of the human being
92:43
it fits perfectly with all the
92:45
descriptions of non-duality that life is
92:49
only a present moment experience arising
92:53
in consciousness made of consciousness
92:57
not separate from the consciousness that
93:00
witnesses at all and so then when we
93:06
consider this alternate model right so
93:11
science and philosophy and even
93:14
spirituality essentially putting forward
93:16
models of best fit and I’ve come to see
93:21
that actually both models are going to
93:26
result in this experience not only the
93:29
experience of being a separate person in
93:33
a world but also they would account for
93:37
the shift where we feel like we’re not
93:39
the body we are consciousness in both
93:44
cases either experience that we or any
93:49
range of experience that we have in life
93:51
could be a
93:52
by either models the first one is
93:54
because God has created the experience
93:57
to be at first one of a certain illusion
94:02
where we feel that we are a separate
94:05
entity and then at a specific point in
94:10
the in the creation it’s designed
94:15
differently where what we would say okay
94:17
now illusion has fallen away and there’s
94:20
a seeing of reality and it’s not causal
94:24
it’s just in the moment the whole world
94:28
is the way it is just like in the dream
94:30
it seems causal but actually it’s always
94:32
a completely fresh arising in each
94:35
moment the whole which is why in a dream
94:38
you can it’s not necessarily continuous
94:43
a dream can sort of break the rules of
94:46
causality because it’s actually always
94:48
it’s spontaneous so like in you know in
94:51
a film where suddenly they insert a
94:53
funny frame the the continuty can break
94:59
so if we can open our mind up to see
95:04
that either model can explain the
95:07
experience we have of being human then
95:11
our rigidity with holding on to the
95:15
notion that what the Scriptures tell us
95:17
is truth can fall away which is great
95:21
because holding anything as truth is a
95:25
limitation to our integration but
95:29
because our experience shifts and sort
95:32
of informs us of something unless we
95:34
have an alternative that can also
95:37
hold that new experience and explain
95:40
it then we go for the model that we’ve
95:43
been given that holds it if you know
95:45
what I mean so in the second model it
95:50
says there really is a joy in an
95:53
objective world and your experience of
95:57
the objective world can be a range can
96:03
range
96:04
but so if you have your experience let’s
96:07
say we go with the objective world model
96:09
you have the experience where there is
96:12
no joy because enjoy sort of that the
96:16
brain isn’t adding on labels at that
96:19
point in time and so the experience has
96:20
changed this still is a joy in the
96:22
objective world it’s just that the
96:27
experience is not necessarily
96:31
representing that but if if the model is
96:35
that there is an objective world with an
96:37
objective joy in it then it doesn’t
96:40
matter what the experience tells us this
96:43
still is a join objective world but is
96:49
there an objective world we don’t know
96:51
this is the thing is we we can’t say
96:55
there is or there isn’t so we can’t know
96:58
which of the two models this is a result
97:00
of if this is a virtual world which it
97:03
could be and look at technology now I
97:05
mean what if this the the the real
97:09
civilization is the world 2610 right and
97:14
they’ve created a virtual simulation of
97:16
what are we in 2019 right um
97:20
it’s completely feasible that we’re
97:22
living in a virtual not we’re living we
97:24
are the result of a virtual world and so
97:27
virtual world created by an advanced
97:30
more advanced civilization than us or a
97:33
virtual world created in the mind of God
97:37
or an objective reality that’s not
97:40
virtual we’ll all in experience be the
97:43
same and so we might have we might think
97:49
we can know which one it is but we can’t
97:51
and as we understand the nature of
97:54
experience and the limitations of
97:57
observation perception there’s a
98:02
principle of conclusion they’re coming
98:04
and coming that were says we can’t know
98:06
what it is and so then given we can’t
98:10
know what is very important is that we
98:12
liberation is not the ending of the
98:15
experience of duality
98:17
and time and space we say okay so this
98:21
is the world in which I have to live
98:23
this is the world in which was which was
98:24
created whether it was created by
98:26
Brahman whether it’s created by a
98:28
civilization out there that’s much more
98:30
advanced than we could be the misfits
98:32
actually in that symbolization I like
98:34
this as a play around right
98:36
it’s a civilization that actually is
98:38
full of love and we are the misfits that
98:43
wear the genes and
98:44
up-to-date-conditioning hasn’t quite
98:47
caught up with everyone else in that
98:50
other civilization out there so the
98:52
belief in doership and attachment to
98:54
outcome has fallen away for there and
98:57
they’re living happily no guilt no blame
98:59
no pride no expectation and a few of the
99:03
byproducts because evolution hasn’t
99:05
quite got it right yet still a
99:09
suffering and maybe even hurting people
99:12
and doing stuff like that and you know
99:15
the the prison system of that
99:18
civilization is going to be much more
99:21
advanced than the one of this
99:22
civilization right we all sort of tend
99:25
to look at the prison system and say oh
99:26
it’s not working that’s not good so in
99:29
that other civilization they’ve got it
99:34
right and so when they see someone like
99:36
this they all everyone loves that person
99:38
who they see you’re not the doer you
99:40
know you’re not functioning that way
99:42
because you’re a separate independent
99:45
entity and so they might have figured
99:47
out how to bring about change and so
99:50
they say I guess what you get to go into
99:52
the simulator hmm so the misfit I’m
100:00
saying misfit you know misfit yeah
100:01
doesn’t fit into that civilization and
100:04
where the level of humanity is over
100:08
there gets it free no charge because
100:12
everyone loves everyone and so they want
100:15
to see everyone and so here’s your gift
100:17
you get to go into the simulator and the
100:19
simulator is coming into a world like
100:21
this and that might be the most
100:23
effective way of changing the
100:25
consciousness of the misfit right and so
100:28
we might be that
100:31
that character fact is we can’t know
100:34
that it’s it’s fun it’s sort of science
100:37
fiction and that’s what spirituality in
100:40
the top-down teachings is telling us
100:42
this is a virtual reality essentially
100:44
not of a civilization but of God
100:47
that all there is outside of this is God
100:51
it’s not the truth it’s part of a
100:56
teaching methodology to bring about
100:57
change now if we come back to there is a
101:03
virtual reality there is still a oneness
101:05
and the oneness is that we are not not a
101:08
virtual where I come back to the
101:09
objective reality because the solution
101:12
is still oneness but it’s not the
101:14
oneness of our experience the oneness of
101:16
our experience happens and there is a
101:19
oneness in our experience right
101:20
whichever it is virtual reality or an
101:23
experience happening in the mind of an
101:25
objective human and an objective world
101:27
the experience is one single arising in
101:30
consciousness there is oneness there so
101:32
we can come to see the oneness of
101:34
experience but that doesn’t mean there’s
101:37
definitely nothing outside of the
101:39
experience in the case of the model that
101:43
we assume there’s an objective reality
101:44
there is something outside so on what
101:49
basis is there connection on what basis
101:53
are we connected to life if there’s an
101:55
objective reality and that basis is that
101:57
we are spawned from life of
101:59
cause-and-effect life that we are a
102:02
result of life unfolding it started from
102:07
an initial source somewhere it must have
102:10
an initial source and therefore
102:11
everything in life is contained within
102:14
life so nothing is separate from life so
102:18
from this perspective me as a human
102:20
being am NOT a separate independent
102:23
entity from life and that the
102:26
consciousness functioning through me may
102:28
not be the consciousness of a god that
102:31
is consciousness it may be a
102:34
consciousness that arises as a result of
102:38
the complexity of life the evolution of
102:40
life and therefore me coming in contact
102:43
with the core
102:44
of what I am as a human being
102:46
consciousness means I connect firstly to
102:49
the core which is the source of Roger
102:52
and then I say that that’s that
102:55
consciousness is part of the evolving
103:00
complexity of life and so that what
103:03
happens through me is never independent
103:06
from everything that happened before so
103:11
why is this so important because at the
103:13
end of the day whether it’s a virtual
103:15
reality or an objective reality is
103:17
irrelevant what we find is that we are a
103:20
human being in a world and liberation
103:24
doesn’t suddenly mean that the world
103:27
disappears and we find ourselves out in
103:31
reality we still have to continue to
103:33
function in this world so at some point
103:35
we say okay I can’t know whether what
103:39
the nature of the universe actually is I
103:43
can’t know a whole lot of things my
103:45
human intellect simply isn’t complex
103:47
isn’t complex to understand the whole
103:50
universe what do I really want I want to
103:53
be able to function as a human being in
103:55
this world in this life in a way that
103:59
I’m told is available and then we start
104:02
to experience it bit by bit which is
104:04
living in this life with less and less
104:08
suffering and as we start seeing and
104:11
practically we see that the suffering
104:12
that arises is a result of seeing myself
104:16
as a separate entity judging myself
104:18
seeing the other as a separate and
104:20
judging them feeling like what I am
104:22
requires life to look like a certain way
104:24
and those things can be investigated and
104:28
without relying on a model and without
104:35
relying on theoretical stuff we can’t
104:37
confirm the root of the suffering can be
104:42
dissolved using investigations based on
104:47
this level of reality and my experience
104:51
then is that I stopped drifting off
104:56
regularly into
104:58
a sort of amorphous I am nothing phase
105:01
which is what we’re sort of forced to do
105:05
when suffering arises because we sort of
105:08
need to move away from the suffering and
105:10
so when I stop labeling the suffering it
105:13
sort of dissolves but then I also have
105:16
to stop being human to an extent and
105:21
once that process has worked and the
105:25
basis of the suffering has fallen away
105:27
which sort of I think requires some the
105:30
more practical explanations to come in
105:32
because the first part is the awakening
105:35
and the dropping into nothing but then
105:38
we find that the roots of suffering are
105:40
still there so the suffering keeps
105:41
arising keeps dragging us out and we’re
105:43
in this game of being dragged out and
105:45
going back into nothing and getting
105:46
dragged out and at some point we deal
105:49
with all of the roots of suffering and
105:52
then there’s absolutely no problem just
105:54
coming back and being Roger I don’t
105:55
need to go to nothing anymore we only
105:58
needed to go to nothing when there was a
106:00
sort of uncomfortableness with being
106:02
Roger yeah I feel like that was sort of
106:06
the experience for some time
106:07
of course without realizing it then but
106:09
there was almost like a rejection of the
106:11
world like no like that’s not real I
106:13
don’t want anything from the world like
106:14
I only want reality and now that’s well
106:20
that’s just kind of that attitude is not
106:23
really there anymore and also because it
106:24
feels like just yeah that like
106:28
everything is equally an expression of
106:30
the one or however you’d want to yes
106:32
however you could try to put it into
106:34
words
106:35
yeah and so I guess your comment is
106:36
saying you don’t go around insisting and
106:40
saying I am joy I am a human being and
106:44
in those times when you don’t need to be
106:49
joy right there is this spaciousness and
106:52
then at other times when there is a need
106:55
to interact with human with other people
106:57
as joy and maybe experience in his
107:02
experience is happening such that you
107:05
really are feeling the body you have no
107:07
resistance to that yeah that will so
107:10
comes quite naturally
107:11
so don’t say not seem to be a problem
107:15
yeah and I I would say that in practical
107:20
terms if we keep in mind and this might
107:23
not sound true for certain people at
107:25
certain phases but at the end of the day
107:27
we’ll see that what keeps coming up that
107:31
disturbs our peace of mind or disturbs
107:33
us actually relaxing into life is all
107:36
these different forms of suffering and
107:38
they’re part and parcel of this creation
107:42
whatever however the creation has
107:45
actually been formed it’s very clear to
107:48
me and so I just like simple evolution
107:50
because whatever the real cause of the
107:54
creation is evolution has been included
107:56
as the mechanism by which it unfolds so
108:00
at the end of the day I think that
108:02
looking at the suffering that keeps
108:06
arising seeing it practically and seeing
108:09
that I can that can dissolve even when
108:12
I’m living and accepting myself as a
108:14
human being yeah and it feels like
108:16
there’s no need for aversion towards
108:18
anything like you know even like anger
108:21
or sadness or you know momentary like
108:24
anxiety or anything like that is also
108:28
like not a big deal not wrong no it
108:32
comes it’s seen as part of the totality
108:37
of this moment are happening and the
108:39
thinking mind is not resisting it it no
108:43
longer is a rather big relief yeah yeah
108:50
that’s the word a relief